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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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[Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam, Does He? )
September 17, 2006 - 05:14 PM
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The Pope.
A man who leads many people.
A man who tries to bring peace to all people, regardless of Religion.
Has he really said something that he needs to apologize for?
Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam
Pope Benedict's speech at Regensburg University, which mentioned Islam and jihad, has provoked a firestorm of controversy.
The address is more complex and subtle than the press on it represents. But let me just signal that what is most troubling of all is that the Pope gets several things about Islam wrong, just as a matter of fact.
He notes that the text he discusses, a polemic against Islam by a Byzantine emperor, cites Qur'an 2:256: "There is no compulsion in religion." Benedict maintains that this is an early verse, when Muhammad was without power.
His allegation is incorrect
Surah 2 is a Medinan surah revealed when Muhammad was already established as the leader of the city of Yathrib (later known as Medina or "the city" of the Prophet). The pope imagines that a young Muhammad in Mecca before 622 (lacking power) permitted freedom of conscience, but later in life ordered that his religion be spread by the sword. But since Surah 2 is in fact from the Medina period when Muhammad was in power, that theory does not hold water.
In fact, the Qur'an at no point urges that religious faith be imposed on anyone by force. This is what it says about the religions:
' [2:62] Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians-- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. '
See my comments On the Quran and peace.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/03/peace-and-love-in-quran-list-of.html
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Yes.
(3 votes for 75%)
No.
(1 votes for 25%)
May be...
(0 votes for 0%)
No comment
(0 votes for 0%)
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam )
September 17, 2006 - 05:15 PM
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The idea of holy war or jihad (which is about defending the community or at most about establishing rule by Muslims, not about imposing the faith on individuals by force) is also not a Quranic doctrine. The doctrine was elaborated much later, on the Umayyad-Byzantine frontier, long after the Prophet's death. In fact, in early Islam it was hard to join, and Christians who asked to become Muslim were routinely turned away. The tyrannical governor of Iraq, al-Hajjaj, was notorious for this rejection of applicants, because he got higher taxes on non-Muslims. Arab Muslims had conquered Iraq, which was then largely pagan, Zoroastrian, Christian and Jewish. But they weren't seeking converts and certainly weren't imposing their religion.
The pope was trying to make the point that coercion of conscience is incompatible with genuine, reasoned faith. He used Islam as a symbol of the coercive demand for unreasoned faith.
But he has been misled by the medieval polemic on which he depended.
In fact, the Quran also urges reasoned faith and also forbids coercion in religion. The only violence urged in the Quran is in self-defense of the Muslim community against the attempts of the pagan Meccans to wipe it out.
posted by Juan
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam )
September 17, 2006 - 05:16 PM
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The pope says that in Islam, God is so transcendant that he is beyond reason and therefore cannot be expected to act reasonably. He contrasts this conception of God with that of the Gospel of John, where God is the Logos, the Reason inherent in the universe.
But there have been many schools of Islamic theology and philosophy. The Mu'tazilite school maintained exactly what the Pope is saying, that God must act in accordance with reason and the good as humans know them. The Mu'tazilite approach is still popular in Zaidism and in Twelver Shiism of the Iraqi and Iranian sort. The Ash'ari school, in contrast, insisted that God was beyond human reason and therefore could not be judged rationally. (I think the Pope would find that Tertullian and perhaps also John Calvin would be more sympathetic to this view within Christianity than he is).
As for the Quran, it constantly appeals to reason in knowing God, and in refuting idolatry and paganism, and asks, "do you not reason?" "do you not understand?" (a fala ta`qilun?)
Of course, Christianity itself has a long history of imposing coerced faith on people, including on pagans in the late Roman Empire, who were forcibly converted. And then there were the episodes of the Crusades.
Another irony is that reasoned, scholastic Christianity has an important heritage drom Islam itself. In the 10th century, there was little scholasticism in Christian theology. The influence of Muslim thinkers such as Averroes (Ibn Rushd) and Avicenna (Ibn Sina) reemphasized the use of Aristotle and Plato in Christian theology. Indeed, there was a point where Christian theologians in Paris had divided into partisans of Averroes or of Avicenna, and they conducted vigorous polemics with one another.
Finally, that Byzantine emperor that the Pope quoted, Manuel II? The Byzantines had been weakened by Latin predations during the fourth Crusade, so it was in a way Rome that had sought coercion first. And, he ended his days as a vassal of the Ottoman Empire.
The Pope was wrong on the facts. He should apologize to the Muslims and get better advisers on Christian-Muslim relations.
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam )
September 17, 2006 - 05:22 PM
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The Pope.
A man who leads many people.
A man who tries to bring peace to all people, regardless of Religion.
Has he really said something that he needs to apologize for?
Religion is not the only subject that is nearly impossible to discuss.
We have a few 'hot button' issues here in our Nation that cannot be talked about by many, for varying reasons.
Most commonly, it is because one side immediately becomes offensive.
Someone actually tries to spark conversation. The words they use may not have been crafted to satisfy the person with the differing opinion. Instead of asking what was meant, or saying 'You really don't understand where I'm coming from. Do you?', an argument ensues and BOTH sides become defensive. Both sides blame the other. Nothing gets accomplished.
Muslims are out in the streets marching and burning 'the Pope' this time. If it escalates as it has in the past, these demonstrations will include pictures of our President and our flag within a couple days.
Here's part of the story:
"The Vatican said the Pope did not intend the remarks — which he made during a speech in Germany on Tuesday — to offend anyone. Benedict didn't explicitly endorse the statement, which recounted a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and a Persian scholar on the truths of Christianity and Islam. ''The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war,'' the Pope said. ''He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.''' "
The man was discussing something that happened in the past.
He is trying to understand how Islam works.
He is not the only one who wants to know how people who claim Islam is peaceful, can also say that it is their duty to slit someone's throat in the 'name of Islam'.
The Pope is scheduled to visit Turkey. It looks as though his first trip to a country that has a Muslim majority may not happen.
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam )
September 17, 2006 - 05:28 PM
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Pope Benedict XVI has possibly brought the Papacy that he represents to the lowest ever level in the esteem of the conscious section of people, especially the Muslims, all over the world by his latest remarks about Islam and its Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Benedict cited an obscure Medieval text that characterises some of the teachings of Islam's founder as "evil and inhuman"-comments some experts took as a signal that the Vatican was staking a more demanding stance for its dealings with the Muslim world.
Possibly there is little to be surprised by the fact that Muslim leaders from around the world demanded a personal apology from the spiritual leader of the Catholic Church.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has defended the German-born pope, saying his message had been misunderstood. "It is an invitation to dialogue between religions and the Pope has explicitly urged this dialogue, which I also endorse and see as urgently necessary," she said on Friday.
According to agency reports, the Rev. Robert Taft, a specialist in Islamic affairs at Rome's Pontifical Oriental Institute, said it was unlikely Benedict miscalculated how some Muslims would receive his speech.
"The message he is sending is very, very clear," Taft said. "Violence in the name of faith is never acceptable in any religion and that (the Pope) considers it his duty to challenge Islam and anyone else on this." The pope spoke this during his visit to his native Germany.
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam )
September 17, 2006 - 05:30 PM
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If one looks at the pope's observation, two things become distinctly clear. Benedict has used an obscure mediaeval Christian emperor to term the Prophet of Islam bad. That was the time of Crusades when Europe was in the words of historians in the 'Dark Age' and things temporal were subordinated to things eternal to the extent the priests even had developed the practice of selling certificates for the dead to go to heaven.
In sharp contrast the religion of Islam proclaimed a balance between earthly and heavenly lives one thousand years before the renaissance and the reformation in Europe.
The second thing is a serious lack of understanding of Islam which stands for peace, equality and tolerance. Those who resort to violence cannot necessarily be categorised as belonging to the faith of Islam. The Iraq war which is now being rejected as military adventurism based on lies was not started by people belonging to the Islamic faith.
Another related but very significant matter is the inability of Muslims to defame Jesus Christ the same way Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was treated in some western newspapers through the publication of derogatory cartoons, because they also accept Jesus as Prophet who preceded the Prophet of Islam.
Muslims, like Catholics and other Christians, believe that Virgin Mary was Jesus' mother, but assert that Jesus, like Prophet Muhammad, was a man not the son of God. While the last point reflects a difference of opinion as to whether Jesus was God or a Messiah, there is no room to blame Islam for not accepting Christianity as one of the religions that Muslims believe are based on holy books coming from Almighty Allah (GOD). It would thus not require quotes from former US President Richard M Nixon to assert that Muslims represent a superior civilisation that has the spirit of tolerating and accommodating other faiths.
If one accepts the Rev. Robert Taft's interpretation of Pope Benedict's statement as correct then, Muslim leaders from around the world who have reacted sharply have probably committed no wrong. The Pope is a human being and human beings are not infallible.
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam )
September 17, 2006 - 05:31 PM
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Pope Benedict XVI knows better why he has quoted from a book to use the reported words of 14th-century Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II, that do not convey nice messages about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who has a following of more than 1.5 billion Muslims around the world. The Pope has an elaborate set-up to prepare his speeches. The latest one thus cannot be called an accident or a lapse.
The Vatican on Saturday announced that the Pope was "deeply sorry" about the angry reaction to his recent remarks about Islam. This does nor mean he retracted from the statement that he made at a time when proponents of the clash of civilisations theory look crazy to ignite violence in succession.
"At this time I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims," the Pope said Sunday.
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam )
September 17, 2006 - 05:33 PM
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What question should i ask when i know the answer. What will be the perfect Question? Popeship is not anymore for spritual but more for political power to lead the religious politics.
Ignorance is No Excuse
Shobuz Bhai
This post was edited on: 2006-09-17 at 05:42 PM by: shobuz
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam, Does He? )
September 18, 2006 - 07:46 AM
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I forgive POPE for his ignorance and what he said. It’s not his fault exactly also many Muslims (by name) are involved with this situation. Whatever POPE’s intention was I think he did what he wanted to do. But we all Muslim shouldn’t care of his comment cuz he means nothing for us. But yes in this month after 5 years of 911 when the facts are coming more clear that we didn’t do anything against humanity and trying to learn more about politics, peace and Mankind, when again we all religious people becoming friends the pope did what the world politics did before. The politicians hit the twin tower of World Trade centre and the Pope hit the invisible twin tower of Christ-Muslims the two tower. I don’t think the POPE is so ignorant to know what will be the reaction
Pope Benedict XVI knows better why he has quoted from a book to use the reported words of 14th-century Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II, that do not convey nice messages about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who has a following of more than 1.5 billion Muslims around the world. The Pope has an elaborate set-up to prepare his speeches. The latest one thus cannot be called an accident or a lapse.
Behind the games they are big heads of this world they are leaders however politically or spiritually because this is not the first time that religion is using as a world politics issue. But what we Muslims should do ? We are doing what the POPE wanted, does real Muslims creating violence’s? Am I did any violence? What I found some ignore Muslim peoples they even don’t know perfectly what POPE said but they are misguided by their religious leaders (leader like pope) and creating problems, they just know that POPE said something wrong about Islam and our Prophet. Yes it’s true that they got angry and very normal as I did also. But we should understand that for POPE or any other non Islamic people can say wrong. Even after the 911 truths they got more more joules about Islam or Muslims. Though Islam never said to do anything wrong nor even any other religion. But people just need a issue to make a wall in this world between Islam / Non-Islam.
Shobuz bhai
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam, Does He? )
September 18, 2006 - 08:07 AM
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It will be more better if you comment on MANKIND and for the peace.
But on the other side we should give the correct answer by all muslim scholers and prove the pope comment is wrong.
Ofcourse Muslims anger over popes speech is right but what the Muslim world is doing it is proving the popes comment.
Shobuz bhai
This post was edited on: 2006-09-18 at 08:06 AM by: shobuz
This post was edited on: 2006-09-18 at 08:28 AM by: shobuz
This post was edited on: 2006-09-18 at 03:27 PM by: shobuz
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam, Does He? )
September 18, 2006 - 03:26 PM
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ahh no doubts his words cant change our thoughts n believes bt v need to take strict action against it.. or els the very nex day sum1 els is gona stand up n ll say sumthing crap abt our religon..
Muslims ruled for 800 years in Spain , but people are still non Muslim there.
Muslims ruled for a 1000 years in India , still 85 percent of the Indian population is non-Muslim. Do you think that 1000 years was a small time? If Islam was to be spread by sword in India , every single non-Muslim will be forced to convert to Islam or else killed. This is very clear that Islam don't allow any Muslim to force some one to convert to Islam. Becaue if some one dont accepts Islam by heart , he is not a Muslim at all. so it is useless to force any one to come to Islam
Muslim never ruled in Indonesia but still it is the country having largest Muslim population.
America is a country in which the growth rate of Islam is highest as compared to any other religion. Is Osama Bin Laden preaching Islam in America????? ?
if Pope has some dignity and courage , he should come to have a speech with Muslim scholars and prove his statements.
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam, Does He? )
September 18, 2006 - 04:23 PM
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sulail wrote:
ahh no doubts his words cant change our thoughts n believes bt v need to take strict action against it.. or els the very nex day sum1 els is gona stand up n ll say sumthing crap abt our religon..
Muslims ruled for 800 years in Spain , but people are still non Muslim there.
Muslims ruled for a 1000 years in India , still 85 percent of the Indian population is non-Muslim. Do you think that 1000 years was a small time? If Islam was to be spread by sword in India , every single non-Muslim will be forced to convert to Islam or else killed. This is very clear that Islam don't allow any Muslim to force some one to convert to Islam. Becaue if some one dont accepts Islam by heart , he is not a Muslim at all. so it is useless to force any one to come to Islam
Muslim never ruled in Indonesia but still it is the country having largest Muslim population.
America is a country in which the growth rate of Islam is highest as compared to any other religion. Is Osama Bin Laden preaching Islam in America????? ?
if Pope has some dignity and courage , he should come to have a speech with Muslim scholars and prove his statements.
Thanks for your beautiful comment,mashallah. But you know what we Muslims should prove ourselves first what we are. POPE means nothing to us even he is not leading the whole christianity. And how can you expect good comment from the person who support Israel to attack Lebanon monumentaly. Who said about 9/11 that ''How can we forgive 911?'' How can people think that he will not play any role for the 911 issue and give a opinion for peace. Even it will be more surprised that if he said something good about Muslims or something for peace. He himself was a member of Hitlers organaization in his childhood.
Shobuz bhai
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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam, Does He? )
September 18, 2006 - 04:59 PM
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All the situations which were happened in the past and still going on are nothing but the game with the right of man, arising politics, dividing nations, atlas which is resulted from the sophisticated feelings about religion.
Politics, religion, Atlas, human rights, dividation of mankind/nations have terned the world into a burning hell from where it may be critical to get back but as a human being we should not live in fale hood neglecting the truth which will affect our future nations and the nations will be like a rudderles boat who have no aims actually at all.
Today, we the muslims are not related with the object or view of true Islam. Moreover, our knowledge about Islam are completely based on textbooks because the reflection of Islam in our practical lives is very little which is not the sign of true Iman.
In the truest sense, the muslims who are devoid of Iman is huge in number in the world, "Islam is a religion of Peace and the allowance of peace can only be known though Islam."
Islam means practicing of proper knowledge, without knowledge Islam is valueless / incomplete.
Today, the true devoted muslim nations are criticized and neglected for the deviated muslims who have no accurate knowledge .
We must would not be the puppet in the hands of those politicians who are playing their games inguise of religion it we follow and practical lives rather our disciplined life will answer all those unwelcommed questions.
These are something about the faults of the followers of Islam but what is the functions of the followers of the other religions today ?
Where Religion is not above humanity then how it is passible that other things like politics, dividation of nations, disorders will be above religion?
Religion is not invented by a particular person(ie.POPE) So no religion or any nation shoudn't be considered by the view of that perticular person. Where politics issued by religion and makes the atmosphere restless there politics should be claimed for the situation not the religion.
Shobuz Bhai
This post was edited on: 2006-09-18 at 05:07 PM by: shobuz
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam, Does He? )
September 18, 2006 - 05:00 PM
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Not any President of any country is the role model of Religion ot the nation rather he uses the religion as a means of politics nothing else.
In Bangladesh, where 90% people are muslims and the people who are blusting bombs and killing people are muslim in the normal sense. The people who attaking the Mosques in India (Holy place of Hindu) are naturally Hindu.It doesn't mean that all Hindu are attaing to Mosques and kiling people. In Iraq those who are killing people and plundering are muslims & soldires from other countries. In America people are tortaring and commetting crimes like rape, plunder to those people who are helpless and frightened by the Tornado aren't the y Christian.In italy, who are human rights and destroying life of millions of young generations by smugling drrugs heroine and other devastating elements, are normally Christian.In Palestine's border of Israel, who are mercilessly / inhumanly killing people day after day aren't they Jewish.The Lebanon Attack ??? The true causes of unrest are sometimes difficult to determine. Frequently, there are a mixture of political alliances, economic differences, ethnic feuds, religious differences and others:
Try to concentrate the above series of events ; it's not related with religious matter rather these are the tricks of some mischievous peole or occourances done by the politicians. Natuarally all these people some how are the followers of some religion. They all use religion to conceal their wickedness.
Today, we the young generations should come forward though we know that it is not easy enough/it is difficult to restore the condition on which the world is going on but it will not be a wise decision to keep quite/to sit passively. We can try our label best to make the world calm and peaceful with our tender and loving touch.
We, the youth can try to establish t he truth, can flourish our human values and make ourselves free from the jealousy and also build ourselves with the conception of a true human being/mankind.
Shobuz Bhai
This post was edited on: 2006-09-18 at 05:09 PM by: shobuz
This post was edited on: 2006-09-19 at 06:37 PM by: shobuz
This post was edited on: 2006-09-19 at 06:37 PM by: shobuz
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Re: [Poll] The Pope Religious Politics-Politics and Peace ( Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam, Does He? )
September 18, 2006 - 05:33 PM
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notice the sequence of events and the sequence of oue misunderstandings....
first when the event of Danemark happened the danish government felt sad bcoz of muslim's misunderstanding of the freedom of expression, now this speech after the memory of 9 11 and with the charged emotions of the whole islamic and chris. world muslims misunderstand the quoted speech of the leader of the large nation of the world...it seems that we misunderstand a lot of things..i wonder why!
there was no offens for isalm coz its not realted in anyway with what the pop said...we have to represent isalm as it is
the islamic orders in war are obvious to the one who wanna know about islam
we must not kill a woman, a child, an elder , we must not cut a tree or kill an animal, we must not kill anyone who doesnt fight us or starts a fight or a war against us, we must not seek a war to gain booties or economics reasons like what happened in the american war in iraq....of course there are other orders i cant put now in details ....but what i now that in the whole islamic history of wars muslims didnt start a war and all their battles were for self defense and the num of killed ppl in that time was 321 during thousands of years compare it to the num that cuased now or in the past by non muslims....
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