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Sarah
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Should the people of the Caribbean celebrate the life and achievements of Columbus?
September 15, 2006 - 08:54 PM
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Should the people of the Caribbean celebrate the life and achievements of Christopher Columbus?
Columbus did bring about the connection of the two hemispheres which did not happen with the voyagers who came to the Americas and Island chains of the Caribbean before him. Then again, he also enslaved many Indians (along with other things) which had no need for.
So. Celebrate Columbus and his achievements
..Whys or Why Nots?
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George C. Owens
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Re: Should the people of the Caribbean celebrate the life and achievements of Columbus?
September 30, 2006 - 12:54 AM
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Sarah,
It was inevatable. If it had not been Columbus another European explorer would have soon discovered the Americas, for it was the time of the Clipper Ships, ships that for the first time that could travel long distances with the wind or against the wind and a level of navagation that could sail unknow open waters and be able to return and ships that could care plenty of food and water for that return trip. Almost imidiatly after Columbus's return to Spain many other explores left Europe headed for the New Lands. Yes they brought new deaseses that wiped out most of the population of the new world. And yes they brought far more advanced weapons. Yes they brought slavery practices that were terrible. But their coming was inevatable.
I am part American Indian (Chickasaw and Choctaw) but I am also Scotch, Irish and English, and a few years ago I discovered that I am African, I do not know which tribe. Would I exsist if Columbus had not made his journey? Would you, Sarah? I like to think that we would but that is my beliefs, not provable fact.
I say celabrate Columbus Day but let each of Us learn from those mistakes and all of Our mistakes and grow into One World, in which We All Live Together.
This post was edited on: 2006-09-30 at 12:57 AM by: GeorgeCO
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Sarah
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Re: Should the people of the Caribbean celebrate the life and achievements of Columbus?
October 1, 2006 - 12:38 PM
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Alright kool, just to have an understanding, I posted this topic up here because I was chosen to to oppose the celebration of Columbus by the Caribbean people for my History Class. So this is good, lets debate and see what happens. I do appreciate your reply.
See next two posts....
“If it had not been Columbus another European explorer would have soon discovered the Americas,
The thing about that is, Columbus wasn’t even the first European to come across the Americas and the Caribbean Island chains. It was the Vikings.
“ships that for the first time that could travel long distances with the wind or against the wind and a level of navigation that could sail unknow open waters and be able to return and ships that could care plenty of food and water for that return trip.”
The Chinese came to the new world 70 years before Columbus. In the book “1421: The Year China Sailed the World,” it states that the new world was already on a map before Columbus had sailed, the doings of those Chinese voyagers whos command was ‘Zheng He.’. Also..” With 600 years of sailing experience, the Chinese had already developed many tools useful to sailing over great distances - like magnetized compasses and watertight bulkhead compartments of a kind the West would have to wait hundreds of years for. Importantly, Zheng He’s ships, known as junks, included on-board vegetable patches, growing soybeans in tubes all year to provide protein and vitamin C, guarding sailors against scurvy”
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Sarah
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Re: Should the people of the Caribbean celebrate the life and achievements of Columbus?
October 1, 2006 - 12:39 PM
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“Yes they brought new deaseses that wiped …….. Yes they brought slavery practices that were terrible.”
The bringing of disease is not the issue. It how they literally worked the Natives to death in mines to find gold. And those who did not bring their share of gold hands were chopped off and left to bleed to death. These were intentional doings of Columbus and those under his command, the disease I don’t consider to be an intentional act. As for slavery, its been a practiced which existed long before Columbus. In ancient Egypt, Greece and so on. But the form in which Columbus did it was different. It had more of a racist / European superiority theme to it.
“Would I exsist if Columbus had not made his journey? Would you, Sarah? I like to think that we would but that is my beliefs, not provable fact.”
Well many factors would have contributed for the absence of my existence such as if my mom did not get employed the time she did at the Law firm where my dad and her meet. If Columbus did not sail when he did, there is no guarantee that the two worlds would not have connected as fast as it had. There were voyagers before him and more than liley would have been voyagers after him and Maybe things would have happened in a more civil manner. I don’t blame Columbus for the African slave trade but he did not leave a good example of how the Europeans should treat the Native Indians and there are still lasting effects of that in today’s society. He is more deserving of those acts than be credited for how the modern world is now.
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George C. Owens
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Re: Should the people of the Caribbean celebrate the life and achievements of Columbus?
October 2, 2006 - 03:12 PM
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Sarah,
You are correct about the Chinese Junkets. Their sails helped to advance the Eropean sailing ships. And yes the Chinese did invent the Compass. I did not know that the Chinese sailed to the Americas in 1421. They probable did not find any thing worth that long voyage.
As for the Vikings, there have been 2 atempted encampments in Nantucket around 1300 years ago but they failed and it is not known wheather those Vikings made it back or simply died out or were absorbed into the Inuit peoples.
Around 15 thousand years ago one or more Europeans brought knowledge of how to make a bi-face spear point to an area around North Carolina that spread quickly through the Americas. Probably it is the reason that there are no Mastadons or Sabber Tooth Tigers left.
Sarah, I hate all people who mistreat any one. Slavery is wrong, in any form. And I will not defend Columbus or any one for their mistreatment of any peoples. But we can not undo the past we can only learn from the past.
George
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Hayk
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Re: Should the people of the Caribbean celebrate the life and achievements of Columbus?
October 3, 2006 - 12:01 PM
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sarah-nasser wrote:
“ships that for the first time that could travel long distances with the wind or against the wind and a level of navigation that could sail unknow open waters and be able to return and ships that could care plenty of food and water for that return trip.”
The Chinese came to the new world 70 years before Columbus. In the book “1421: The Year China Sailed the World,” it states that the new world was already on a map before Columbus had sailed, the doings of those Chinese voyagers whos command was ‘Zheng He.’. Also..” With 600 years of sailing experience, the Chinese had already developed many tools useful to sailing over great distances - like magnetized compasses and watertight bulkhead compartments of a kind the West would have to wait hundreds of years for. Importantly, Zheng He’s ships, known as junks, included on-board vegetable patches, growing soybeans in tubes all year to provide protein and vitamin C, guarding sailors against scurvy”
Sarah, i see you took this passage from Wikipedia decription of Zheng He but consider this:
Whatever Gavin Menzies mentions in his book (that is where you are quoting above) doesn'trender it absolutely credible. Moreover, I read that the farthest that Zheng He explored starting his first voyage in 1403 and ending it in 1433 with his death was Ethiopia. All right, I can claim here, based on what i read, that he basically circumnavigated all the Eastern hemisphere but i have high doubts about He discovering Americas.
And just to illustrate how much Europeans where backward in shipmaking at that time let me give you two numbers:
The biggest voyage of Columbus to Americas had nearly 300 men, whereas He's first voyage included 27,000 men.
It is 90 times more people, and He did 8 voyages, if i remember correct, in the time space of 30 years.
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Hayk
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Re: Should the people of the Caribbean celebrate the life and achievements of Columbus?
October 3, 2006 - 12:15 PM
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GeorgeCO wrote:
Sarah,
As for the Vikings, there have been 2 atempted encampments in Nantucket around 1300 years ago but they failed and it is not known wheather those Vikings made it back or simply died out or were absorbed into the Inuit peoples.
George
To make a small precision here and to put the thread back to its oiginal topic.
GeorgeCO,
First among Vikings was Erik the Red who was also, one can say, a founder of Greenland, who at his time found refuge in there. His attempt was followed by his son Leif Erikson's attempt and he had, according to historical sources, landed in Vinland, which corresponds to nowadays to L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland. Erikson was also the first one with his wife to establish a Christian church on the new found land.
It is believed that Leif Erikson coasted Newfoundland around 1003...
Concerning whether to celebrate the day or no it is a matter of prospective.
But remember this. Even before Vikings, American continent was "discovered" by so called Clovis people who found there innumerable animals and plants most of which one can now find in myth and legends. it happened right after the Last Ice Age when some these people crossed from Siberia to Alaska during meltings..
So Columbus is the last and the most lasting of the memories for the native Amero-Indians, which put America on the map geopolitically and economically.
Anyhow, many moderns do celebrate this event of landing of Columbus due to, among others, the fact that they consider themselves descendants of one or another of Columbus' conquestadors.
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George C. Owens
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Re: Should the people of the Caribbean celebrate the life and achievements of Columbus?
June 19, 2007 - 02:15 AM
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Sarah,
I gota know. How did your debate come out.
And I got a bone to pick with you. These discussion boards really need You. You are still the most open-minded person I have ever meet. You even value opions you totally diagree with. TIG and the World needs your wisdom. I know you have experienced racism but yet I have never seen any racism in you.
Don't take my next statment litely. I would love to see you in the future United States President or Supreme Court Justice. I never say any thing that I am not serious about.
even if I go by george
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