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Adham Khalil
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Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 1, 2006 - 06:10 PM
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Before a few weeks ,all of u have watched and heard the Palestinian child Huda Ghalia crying asking u what are u going to do against Israeli occupying army who killed her family and leave her alone?!!!! There were a few shy answers from the international community except the great answers from the Israeli occupation through committing additional massacres killing more Palestinian children , invaded the south of Gaza strip and kidnapped two Palestinian in that military operation with supporting of the U.S.A without caring of the international community …but the Palestinian legal resistance answers Huda's crying attacking Israeli occupying army camp which establish on Palestinian land kidnapping Israeli soldier …..After that all the world stand asking Palestinian to release him ; besides, Israeli occupation has imposed completely siege on Palestine shelling every where because of the Palestinian reacting of Huda's family assassination ….. unfortunately the world pretend to have forgotten more 10000 ten thousands of Palestinian prisoners in the Israeli prisons including women and children …. Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier …. Is this the justice and the human rights that world believe …..finally I would like to say free free Palestine
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 1, 2006 - 07:01 PM
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let me ask you a simple question -
what do you think we solve the problems in Gaza?
what will make Gaza a better place?
Firing rockets at the Israelis?
kidnapping Israeli soldiers?
suicide bombings?
do these things help your situation? Do they make the lives of ordinary Palestinians better?
or do they CREATE more problems?
Despite your claims that the soldier was kidnapped off Palestinian land - he was in fact kidnapped off Israeli land - that is why they dug a tunnel under the boarder.
And really the point is that these actions do not defend your people, or make you any safer.
firing rockets only gets bigger rockets fired back at you, and gets people like Huda's family killed.
Kidnapping soldiers only brings the rest of the IDF in after him.
instead of focusing hatred on the Israelis - which only creates a negative situation - perhaps the time has come to focus on energy on creating a positive situation in Gaza -
to worry about developing yourself more than killing Israelis -
to build schools instead of bomb factories, to work toward peace and prosparity instead of antagonizing the large powerful army across the boarder.
until you reolize that ONE PHD is worth 1000 suicide bombers, you will never have the situation you seek.
and finally - this kidnapping was not about Huda's family - it was about Mashaal and the Syrians sabotaging the negotiations between Hamas and Fatah.
We are all human Huda's family - the Israeli soldier - you - me -
that means we have a choice - so what is your choice - hate or forgiveness? Anger or clarity? Peace or war?
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Hayk
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 2, 2006 - 01:21 PM
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nagyelali wrote:
Before a few weeks ,all of u have watched and heard the Palestinian child Huda Ghalia crying asking u what are u going to do against Israeli occupying army who killed her family and leave her alone?!!!! There were a few shy answers from the international community except the great answers from the Israeli occupation through committing additional massacres killing more Palestinian children , invaded the south of Gaza strip and kidnapped two Palestinian in that military operation with supporting of the U.S.A without caring of the international community …but the Palestinian legal resistance answers Huda's crying attacking Israeli occupying army camp which establish on Palestinian land kidnapping Israeli soldier …..
Nagyelali,
Its true that international community is not active and especially UN, all it does is usually to "condemn" and couple of days ago even that wasnt possible cause US vetoed this decision of thesecurity Council of the UN..Prisoners, I think, are around 9000, and most of them are convicted for being involved or helping detrimental acts against Israelis, but it is a fact there are those, like in Guantanamo, which are held withot any charge...
Again, I dont think international community is neutral or pro-American. On contrary many of European ministers condemned this act of Israel and even inside Israel there are different views on how it should have been implemented, this liberation of the soldier..
Problem is that the only international org that can do anything is the UN, UN's Security Council having its P5 veto members is what inhibits any effective prevetative action by international community due to the fact of Americans veto on anything having implicitly or explicitly anti-Israelian flavor..
And one thing i agree with Luke is that if Islamic Jihad is not reigned in by Hamas it will help putting all Palestinians into danger, the thing tis doing right now.. Hamas and Islamic Jihad know perfectly well they dont stand a chance against Israeli Army but they try to have "a guerilla war" but forget that retaliation of IDF will spread havoc and will kill many innocent Palestinians.. So its time to stop rocket launching and liberate the soldier so that peace negotiations can start..
Israel thinks now that it will pursue the second objective: to weaken Hamas. And rocket launching gives it a good excuse to launch its troops against Palestinians..
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 2, 2006 - 07:47 PM
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the release of Palestinian prisoners should be part of a comprehensive peace negotiation between Palestine and Israel.
it should not be a hostage negotiation.
and I am pretty certain that a peace treaty could include the release of MOST of the prisoners - some released outright, some transferred into Palestinian jails, and some of the hardcore militants they will want to keep.
but taking a soldier hostage and then demanding the release of 1000 prisoners is not rational and it is not going to work - the Israelis will never agree to it.
NEEDS to be worked out at the peace table.
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Raginski Igor
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 3, 2006 - 03:47 AM
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So as I understand there is no difference between a family who was killed by mistake (not clear by whom) and 18 year old boy who was kidnaped in order TO BE MURDERED?
people that held in Israely prisons are terrorists....simply we have no interest to feed other Palestinians in out prisons. It is surely enough that we give you precious water and electricity and recieve kasams and terror back.
Moreover, I would like to ask you to define "palistine" when you ask to "free" it.(I'm not sure about the expression "free palestine", bacause there was never such country, by this is another discussion).
I hope there will be peace soon, but if all your side has attitude like yours, YOU have a long time to go before you will be ready to FAIR negotiations.
cheers, Gosha.
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Adham Khalil
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 3, 2006 - 12:07 PM
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im really very sorry to hear that from u , is this u nature ... u always accuse palestinian as terrorrist and u are alwas victims ,,, pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee tell me who is occupying other ,we or you ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to be ensure , ask u fathers whrere were they come from ?
who have the great power ?
who committ masacres against palestinian as Der yasin , sabra and Shatela ......etc
i want really to thank u Ghosha about the electricity and water ...... but dont forget that u give me from my land ......
i hope to return one day to my native village " Hulayqat " _http://www.palestineremembered.com/Gaza/Hulayqat/index.html _ which my grands were imigrated by force .
but we accept to 1967 to achieve justice peace depending on international documantations and united startes charter .......
palestinians have tried a lot and to make peace with israeli through the prisedent Yaser arafat and next him Abu mazen , but u want to make peace without giving anything to palestinian .....Palestine is our state and Jerusalem is our capital .... we will get it one day if u want by negotiation or by our resistance .....
This post was edited on: 2006-07-03 at 12:08 PM by: nagyelali
This post was edited on: 2006-07-03 at 12:10 PM by: nagyelali
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 3, 2006 - 02:42 PM
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Gosha,
I am certain that not all of the people in jail are terrorists - they do not have all the legal protections and access to attorneys that for instance YOU would expect if you were ever arrested for something.
Nagy - I think you need to take a hard look at WHY you are living under occupation.
do you imagine the Israelis enjoy spending Billions of $ and their sons and daughters to patrol millions of Palestinians who hate their guts?
No - the reason you are occupied is because you attack the Israelis - this is why you were occupied in 67' - the West Bank and Gaza were active battlefronts against the Israelis
AND I want you to think very hard about what this all means for the West Bank - the Israelis were planning to pull out of the West Bank - now??
they will say "look what happened, when we left Gaza they just used the freedom to launch missils at us - we cannot leave the West Bank or they will just attack us more"
Finnally Arafat was NOT a man of peace - he walked away from Camp David - he DECLARED the Intefadda - he glorified "Myrterdom" - and he was in the habit of speaking out both sides of his mouth -
he would "condemn" suicide bombings - but it was HIS group half the time that DID them.
Abu Mazen is a leader I respect - but he never had control of Hamas or Jihad and so was not able to really negotiate a peace with Israel.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 3, 2006 - 02:42 PM
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Gosha, it is not enough to simply call the Palestinains "terrorists" -
you need to understand where they are coming from, where the anger comes from - it is the first step towards acheiving peace -
and you need to decide what concessions Israel is willing to make in the interests of peace - you guys cannot keep everything, some painful sacrifices need to be made.
Nagy - you cannot talk about how the Palestinians want peace when Hamas is controlling government and basically has declared war on Israel.
Hamas is kidnapping soldiers - they are your government and you say they want peace?
also you must reolize that Abbas cannot negitiate a peace unless Hamas and the militant groups are disarmed and serve the government.
the most fundamental problem Palestinians have had regarding the peace negotiations is that they do not speak with one voice.
Arafat or Abbas would negotiate and if Hamas of Jihad didn't like where it was going they would send a bomber into Israel to kill a bunch of people and sabotage negotiations.
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Lisa Campbell Salazar
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 3, 2006 - 09:31 PM
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let me ask you a simple question -
what do you think we solve the problems in Gaza?
what will make Gaza a better place?
Firing rockets at the Palestinians?
kidnapping elected Palestinian officials?
bulldozing houses and olive trees?
do these things help your situation? Do they make the lives of ordinary Israelis better?
or do they CREATE more problems?
this is not an equal conflict. for the one israeli soldier who was kidnapped, think of all the palestinians who are in jail right now. yes we are all victims, but it is obvious that this is not an equal conflict. not so obvious when watching CNN or Fox, but when you dig below the surface one can see that it is not as simple as it seems. no i don't want more israelis to die, but how could they invade gaza when hamas was on the verge of signing a peace accord with other militant factions. seems like peace wouldn't work so well for israel's development plans. where would the new east jerusalem suburbs go? where would ariel expand to? who would produce all of the cheap products for overseas exports?
how do we define peaceful co-existance? is there room for economic expansion and increased annexation of land?
i think not.
This post was edited on: 2006-07-03 at 09:33 PM by: qnp
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 4, 2006 - 12:08 AM
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so they at war and the Israelis are winning
That doesn't make one side more or less moral - that they are winning or losing the war.
The point there is violence on both sides.
As for the Prisoner proposal - again, obviously Kaleed Mashaal and the external Hamas leadership was unhappy with the agreement - why else would they kidnap an Israeli soldier the day before the agreement was to be signed.
as for it being some major accord - qnp, I think you overestimate its significance.
Even as they were signing it Hamas denying that it meant recognising Israel - so...
But I am happy they signed it. The real significance would be if the Palestinians could actually stake out and articulate a common bargening position.
they need to speak with one voice when they negotiate with the Israelis, this will make them much stronger and at a much more fundamental level, allow them to actually come to the table in a real way.
But anyway - you are making out like Hamas was declaring peace with the Israelis - that is not what is happening
it is between Hamas and Fatah - they have been fighting for months now - started with Hamas trying to assasinate the Fatah heads of Intelligence and Security.
- good to see Hamas and Fatah get on the same page - we'll see how it works out moving forward.
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Raginski Igor
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 4, 2006 - 08:44 AM
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First of all nagyeleli.
I dont have to asc my parents where am I from, because me myself originally from Belorussia.
Second thing - I is your problem, palestinians, you are stuck in the past. "we were there first"...so okay, talking about history? we were living here about 2500 yers ago, and the people today called "Palestinians" were brought here from whole muslim world by Othmans some centuries ago in order to prevent "unwanted" demographic controll, and in order to build somrthing on those deserted lands (and sorry my friend, you havent done a good job.. ).
But I asc you - STOP TALKING ABOUT THE PAST!!! You, (and many Israelis) have vare deep problem with principes (who was first)...You have to understand one thing - WE are HERE and we are not going to flow away anywhere, pretty as well as you are HERE and you are not going to dissapear from this land. DONE? SO WE BOTH ARE STUCK HERE AND HAVE TO LIVE TOGETHER AND RAISE OUR CHILDREN HERE. and nowhere else. and the only way to do it is to sit down and talk WITHOUT ANY HOPES TO THROW US TO THE SEA ONE DAY, and to devide this piece of land. we have to start fair, normal and frank negotiations!!!But as long you dont change those ideas of revenge and dignity, we will fight.
Regarding your grandparents - NO ONE was pulled by force from his home - proof - there are almost 2 millions arabs living in Israel. the only ones to run where people who didnt accept to live with us (or those who went to join the armies who came to kill us..).
And please, stop talking about sabra and Shatela ...it was a conflict between local muslim and cristian communities. yhe cristians used the mess during the invasion to Lebanon to REVENGE the muslim community. So stop blaming us because it wont work.
And about those past "negotiations"...when you could get ANYTHING you wanted in Camp - David - you started the Intifada. why? because Arafat told the armed forces to do it..why? because it was his only chance to runaway from taking responsibility for palestinian state. why? because his goal was TO DESTROY ISRAEL.(and peace contract means living side by side)...
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Raginski Igor
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 4, 2006 - 08:45 AM
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And more for nagy:
you said :"but we accept to 1967 to achieve justice peace depending on international documantations and united startes charter ......."...and thats allright. make your people stop fighting and start talking WITHOUT DIRTY tricks like Arafat did, and youll have a state in a year.
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Hayk
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 6, 2006 - 02:10 PM
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gosha86 wrote:
Second thing - I is your problem, palestinians, you are stuck in the past.
Gosha86,
I would firstly ask you to use a more respectful language while posting..
"we were there first"...so okay, talking about history? we were living here about 2500 yers ago, and the people today called "Palestinians" were brought here from whole muslim world by Othmans some centuries ago in order to prevent "unwanted" demographic controll, and in order to build somrthing on those deserted lands (and sorry my friend, you havent done a good job..
Dear Gosha86, before starting to lecture anyone about history in a way you did above, please consult multiple sources...
All above statements concerning Palestinian origins and even Israeli part are wrong....
Jews were known to be in the region already at around 13the century BC, and Philistinians(ancestors of modern Palestinians) came allegedlly around the same time, perhaps a bit late...
And about those past "negotiations"...when you could get ANYTHING you wanted in Camp - David - you started the Intifada. why? because Arafat told the armed forces to do it..why? because it was his only chance to runaway from taking responsibility for palestinian state. why? because his goal was TO DESTROY ISRAEL.(and peace contract means living side by side)...
Somehow, every Israeli and sometimes Jews from otehr countries give Camp David II as a good example how Palestinians avoided peace negotiations...But somehow the most important facts about most of Arab-Israeli wars (for example the fact that in 1982 during the Lebanon War Beirut was invaded and was one of the main causes of the birth of Hezbolah) are left not mentionned...
Hamas creation was the same... A military spin-off of Muslim Brotherhood, a religious, political and social movement created in 1928, in 1987...
Violence begets violence...
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Raginski Igor
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 6, 2006 - 06:00 PM
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Dear mnopq
Sorry about the language
Second: How do you know the Philistinians are ancestors of Palestinians? if you dont believe me, check up in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines
"Later, Nebuchadrezzar II of Babylon eventually conquered all of Syria and the Kingdom of Judah, and the former Philistine cities became part of the Neo-Babylonian Empire. All traces of the Philistines as a people or ethnic group disappear."
"British writers of the 19th century and very early 20th century sometimes referred to the Arabs of Palestine as "Philistines". This was apparently not due to a belief in a strong connection with the ancient Philistines, but merely reflects the former convention that "Philistine" simply denotes "native of "Palestine"."
and refering Camp David: you by yourself agreed that PLO was established before 1967, in order to destroy Israel, So your claim "violence for violence" looses its relevance. (I see no difference between Hamas and PLO or FATAH..they may fight with each other, but their goal is the same...and I suspect there were periods when they all were ruled by one single man).
And Lebanon war - I think most of it war our mistake.
And the last : I must remind you that we are out of Lebanon for...6 years? and Hizbollah is still there..why? maybe you know....
Good night!!
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Aren't they human as the Israeli kidnapped soldier ?!!!!!!!!!
July 6, 2006 - 06:18 PM
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I am not sure what Hezbullah has to do with Camp David -
Hayk - what are you suggesting the connection is?
anyway - it does bring to mind the potential problems that can be created when Syria and Israel start fighting -
which is why it is unwise for the region for Syria to hide Kaleed Mashaal.
- also - it should be mentioned that Jews have always lived in the area in some capacity, and the Maccabbee's fought off the Romans and ruled for over 100 years 60 years before Christ.
they were still in majority well after Jesus died and during his time obviously they were under Roman rule.
the Romans and the Assyrians made many Jews into slaves and took them away from their homeland.
but the basic point Gosha is making is well taken -
both Israelis and Palestinians are there NOW, the neither is going to dissappear -
peace is the only thing that makes any kind of sense.
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