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Anu maheshwari
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the 'grave mistake'
May 18, 2006 - 03:15 AM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4993786.stm
Prodi calls Iraq war a 'grave mistake'
Now I am really confused . The grave mistake has already been done. now the question is what is being done to rectify it. Blaming the US govt at this stage is not going to help the Iraqis in any way. Even today 12 people died there according to BBC . there hasnt been a single day when people didnt die there.
During the MILMUN opening ceremony we had as guest speaker , Dr. Kishore Mandhyan , Senior UN Political Adviser, Baghdad who gave us a talk on the situation in Iraq- Overview and United Nations role. he talked about the drafting of the Iraqi constitution and it seems that the Iraqis are not being given freedom and time to draft their own constitution.
Any kind of change whether it is peace or a cultural change which is superimposed externally on a country or a community is not going to last long. For the real change to happen it needs to come from within.
Great historic revolutions which changed the face of the world came from the people put under certain condtions and contexts. external interference further complicates the issue and hardly ever provides a solution.
I had a really good discussion with an Iranian friend who lives in Italy . According to him ,Iraq under the Americans is more welcomed than the one under Saddam and he also thinks that Iranian govt of Mullahs should be changed to pave way for more reforms there .
Well the opinion is divided on the case. My friend was born in Italy and has been living there for quite a long time . and my Iranian friends who live in Iran presently think differntly.they would also welcome reforms but most of them think that any sort of change in their society should come naturally and internally and should not be imposed externally .
Hoping that UN takes a firm stand in re-building Iraq and learns from the 'grave mistake' so as to not repeat it in future!
cheers
Anu
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Kina
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 19, 2006 - 11:51 AM
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Anu, i was against the war to begin with. Living in the U.S has made me see where people in other countries feel that their freedom is violated by overimposition so called super power countries. I mean i don't agree with having a dictatorial regime but i believe that an outside can't make such an extreme change in a country and expect it to last. The only people who can change this are the Iraqis because they're the ones that feel the real impact of government instability. We as outsiders can advocate change and do as much as we can but again it boils down to who is really walking a mile in the Iraqi people's shoes. I most definately support the UN on this issue because i can't sit here and tell an American what will work for him/her here in my America. i can suggest and assist. We all want peaceful resolutions so why make threats and why not really try to understand how deep this issue is from a personal point of view-a mother perhaps in Iraq or son/daughter could explain better because they live that life..
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Pap-sy
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 19, 2006 - 01:34 PM
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Well, to me actually i agree, this is not the time to start pointing fingers.
The people of Iraq under Sadam's regime suffered so much and its like a liberation that the American government has removed him and are trying to put a new government in place.
Another thing is that the majority of those in Iraq are of the anti-American policies and these ones wont stop at nothing to make sure that peace never reigns in that country. And that is why there would continue to be insurgent attacks on American soldiers. The war on terrorism will definitely be worn, but it would only take time and tremendous efforts.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 19, 2006 - 03:34 PM
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Well,
I think the problem with saying "i don't agree with dictatorship but the change can't come from the outside"
is that if you ask most Iraqis they will tell you that they TRIED to change things from the inside - they tried to overthrow Saddam a few times - and each time they were mercilessly crushed - at some level I just don't think it is reolistic to expect Iraqis to change their government WITHOUT outside help -
it was just not possible for them - they were totally outgunned.
that siad I think the Iraq war - was so poorly excuted that the situation there now is scarcely better than when Saddam was in charge - but time will tell.
I just think your expectations are unreasonable - he had an highly brutal and efficient SS guard that kept the people totally intimidated.
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 20, 2006 - 11:14 AM
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luke wrote:
Well,
I just think your expectations are unreasonable - he had an highly brutal and efficient SS guard that kept the people totally intimidated.
But i was not talking about what has already happened . we can have an endless discussion on whether what happened was right or wrong.
what i wanted to ask was why are the iraqis not being given time and freedom to draft their own constituition.
why is the US government monitoring them llike they are babies or kindergarten kids who need to be spoon - feeded?
isnt it better if UN takes over the whole thing...but of course the US govt has its own interests in Iraq ...and which is not unusual ...granted that they are the superpower.
Still the reconstruction process should be aimed at making the Iraqis more self -sufficient instead of encouraging a dependency complex like many of the African countries have at present.
ciao!
Anu
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namesteshanti
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 20, 2006 - 12:40 PM
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I agree with anu, if i may call them that. What has already happened is not what we should be worried about. The us can't just force things on the iraqis! We need to let them do things for themselves, otherwise the country will never be stable. People are dying there every day, we need to get a move on and get everything straightened out!
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 20, 2006 - 03:02 PM
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thanks namasteshanti !
of course you can call me Anu if thats what you meant to ask. 
i also thought it would be interesting to put before you all the following information:
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_IRN.html
this is Iran's country fact sheet . and if you compare it with India 's :
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_IND.html
i think Iran appears a winner!
one more reason why the 'grave mistake should never ever be repeated in Iran!
it will achieve nothing good !
reforms and change of ideas will come to Iran with growth of education and gender empowerment through peaceful projects undertaken by UNIDO , UNDP etc ...
the effort of UN i.e all nations should be now to integrate Iran into world community and open dialogue with them and not by isolating them with sanctions.
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Becky
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 21, 2006 - 10:02 PM
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I will try to keep my comments confined to simply my "two cents" worth rather than writing a dissertation. The war in Iraq is an event which I feel quite strongly about, as I believe many people around the world also do. Like most wars, there are adamant opinions both supporting and opposing it. Its nice to have a forum such as this to listen to and share varying opinions.
I agree with what some have said that the point about debating the ethicality of this war is a waste of energy because we are too far into the war to make much of a change in that area. However, I do hope that the US will not use this as a springboard for further invasion and conflict in other countries. It might be true (or false, as I have not spoken to an Iraqis myself to confirm or deny it) that internal attempts to over-throw Saddam were thwarted and the only other resort was for an outside power to come in. Nevetheless, there are dozens of governments around the world who could be considered equally corrupt and inhumane. Can the US reasonably invade every country? No. The biggest fault I find with the US's actions is the selective nature of our international assistance. Did we do much to assist in Rwanda or prevent genocide in Bosnia, how about currently in the Sudan or to assist starving Palestinanians? There is much conflict, discord and tragedy going on in the world. Where the US chooses to intervene seems to be more of a political (and conspiratorial??) choice rather than a moral or ethical one.
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Hayk
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 23, 2006 - 08:09 AM
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The US policy of making discrimination where to intervene and where not is not too old!
The isolationist foreign policy was pretty much over starting with Theodore Roosevelt but it was Woodrow Wilson who intstituted the idea which became known as Wilsonism and was later adapted at one level or another by all US presidents. The idea was to have firstly a democracy at home and secondly to spread the US institution ideology all around the world for sake of creating liberal governments and ultimately having a free world where the balance in societies would be established and where the driving force would be collaboration and the underlying foundation would be peace!
Wilson was at this time being the first US president to introduce the "messianic" role of the US whereupon the US foreign policy was tailored down to deal with emergying situations and with separate countries in a way along Wilsonian lines!
Ever since Wilson each US president had the "implementation" of this messianic role in his way! This explains firstly the very creation of League of Nations initiated and later alienated by Wilson. It was to deal with so-called "collective security" and to effectively prevent any upcoming conflict from erupting.
But with our current US president the messianic role implying sometiems interventionism turned itself into looking for tangible profits and pitching about liberal institutions all at once...
H.
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 24, 2006 - 03:47 PM
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Exactly Hayk! starting from the open door and monroe doctrine...the policy of intervention has been intrinsic to US foreign policy. and of course " democracy ' is the key word thrown about at the beginning to justify the ways of US govt to the world
I found this interesting article by fareed Zakaria... which is very relevant to the subject we are discussing...take a peek...
http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/articles.html
What the World Really Wants
Russians still rate democracy as something they like and value. But their big priority is the conditions that let them lead decent lives.
By Fareed Zakaria
The Bush administration describes spreading democracy as the lodestar of its foreign policy. It speaks about democracy constantly and has expanded funding for programs associated with it. The administration sees itself as giving voice to the hundreds of millions who are oppressed around the world. And yet the prevailing image of the United States in those lands is not at all as a beacon of liberty. Public sentiment almost everywhere sees the United States as self-interested and arrogant. There is a huge disconnect between what the Bush administration believes it stands for and how it is seen around the world.
Why? Well, consider Vice President Cheney's speech on May 4 in Lithuania, in which he accused Russia of backpedaling on democracy. Cheney was correct in his specific criticisms. If anything, he was coming a little late to this party. Senators like John McCain and Joe Lieberman have been making this case for more than a year. Russia watchers have been pointing to these trends for longer. But to speak as Cheney did last week misunderstands the reality in that country, and squanders America's ability to have an impact in it.
.....to be continued
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 24, 2006 - 03:49 PM
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Contd.
In Cheney's narrative, Russia was a blooming democracy during the 1990s, but in recent years it has turned into a sinister dictatorship where people live in fear. In castigating Vladimir Putin, Cheney believes that he is speaking for the Russian masses. He fancies himself as Reagan at the Berlin wall. Except he isn't. Had Cheney done his homework and consulted a few opinion polls, which are extensive and reliable in Russia, he would have discovered that Putin has a 75 percent approval rating, about twice that of President Bush.
Most Russians see recent history differently. They remember Russia in the 1990s as a country of instability, lawlessness and banditry. They believe that Boris Yeltsin bankrupted the country, handed its assets over to his cronies and spent most of his time drunk and dysfunctional. Yeltsin's approval ratings by 1994 were below 20 percent and in 1996 he actually went into the single digits for a while. Russians see Putin, on the other hand, as having restored order, revived growth and reasserted national pride.
Why? Well, for the average Russian per capita GDP has gone from $600 to $4,500 during Putin's reign, much, though not all of which, is related to oil prices. The poverty rolls have fallen from 42 million to 26 million. College graduates have increased by 50 percent and a middle class has emerged in Russia's cities. And yet the backsliding that Cheney described is quite true, too. I've been critical of Putin power grabs for years now. But the truth is that even so, Russia today is a strange mixture of freedom and unfreedom. (The country publishes 90,000 books a year, espousing all political views.)
Polls in Russia show that people still rate democracy as something they like and value. But in the wake of the 1990s, they value more urgently conditions that will allow them to lead decent civic and economic lives. We went to Iraq with similar blinders, believing that all people thirsted for was the end of Saddam. But when that meant the end of order, stability and civilized life, they were horrified and blamed us. If we had paid attention to this fundamental (and conservative) insight, we might not be in the mess we are in today in Iraq.
to be contd...
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: the 'grave mistake'
May 24, 2006 - 03:51 PM
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contd..
Or consider Nigeria. American officials have been debating how to help that country, by ensuring that its elected president, Olusegun Obasanjo, would not run for a third term (which would have required amending election laws). Last week the Nigerian Senate ruled out a third term, and Washington applauded. But in fact this whole drama is largely irrelevant to what is really happening in Nigeria. Over the last 25 years, the country has gone into free fall. Its per capita GDP has collapsed, writes Jeffrey Tayler in the April issue of The Atlantic, from $1,000 to $390. It ranks below Haiti and Bangladesh on the Human Development Index. In 2004 the World Bank estimated that 80 percent of Nigeria's oil wealth goes to 1 percent of its people. Sectarian tensions are rising, particularly between Muslims and Christians, and 12 of the country's 36 provinces have imposed Sharia. Violent conflict permeates the country, with 10,000 people dead over the last eight years. In this context, Obasanjo's third term is really not the big issue that will determine Nigeria's future. (Obasanjo has actually presided over a series of important improvements, which will probably collapse in his absence.) But these are the only issues that we talk about, because we're spreading democracy.
The United States should stand for and help promote freedom around the world. But we can do so effectively only if we ally ourselves with the aspirations of the people we are trying to help. For many of them, the great struggle going on in so much of the world today is to end civil strife, corruption, extreme poverty and disease, which destroy not just democracy but society itself. And on those issues, I don't think I've ever heard a speech by Dick Cheney.
Cheers
Anu
PS .is there any way the word limit of the posts is increased like it was in the older version of TIG discussion board?
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