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Hayk
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Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ehud Olmert
April 19, 2006 - 11:21 AM
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Hi guys!
Recent suicide-bombing in Tel-Aviv by 21 year old university drop-out seems to me rather sad...
Moreover, Hamas, the governing party, instead of quenching or somehow calming down Fathi Shaqaqi's Palestinian Islamic Jihad, gives a comment such as "our nation is in a stae of permanent self-defense". I find this tactics really unsettling cause not only it will bring Hamas to anywhere but as Ehud Olmert said "its not Hamas this time, but its people with Hamas' idealogy and ability to act".
Considering that Israel is building a concrete wall which will soon cut several thousand Jerusalemi Palestinians from their brethren in the West Bank and considering the truce of Hamas but aggressions of Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades I am not sure there will be any peaceinthe region... anytime soon at least...
What do you people think?
H.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ehud Olmert
April 19, 2006 - 12:17 PM
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I think with the election of Hamas the Palestinains moved away from peace. As we discussed before - hopefully all this pressure will transform Hamas into a more responsible political organization -
but this certainly hasn't happened yet - I think what they actually said was that the suicide bombing is 'justified'.
If the Palestinians are not careful - Olmert is just going to unilaterally set the boarders and say - "I had to because there is no partner for peace on the Palestinain side." - and if Hamas does not reform its ideology he will be right.
the window is closing. Every Israeli I talk to just wants a complete divorce from the Palestinains - in every way - they do not want economic or infrastructure ties either.
If Hamas is protecting Jihad by refusing to arrest them or otherwise curb their attacks on Israel - which beside the suicide bombing include regular rocket fire - then it is the same as if they were committing the attacks themselves - certainly in the eyes of Israelis.
Hamas is going to screw this up for their people - Hamas is turning out to be exactly as the west feared - a terrorist government - which would serve as a pretext for the seperation wall, the Israeli policies - all of it.
sigh...
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Adham Khalil
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why Hamas ?
May 12, 2006 - 04:58 AM
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hi
i think when any one write in such issues u have to think of this points ....
1- discuss the past actions and the causes and effects .
2- to define the victim and the criminal "terrorrist" .
3- imagine u self live the same situation ....
i think that palestinian were in thier native homes living safely when israeli forces invaded palestine in 1948 during NAKBA and israeli migrated palestinian to several places in the world .... as a result of that palestinian resist them .. after a long period of time palestinian think to make peace process with them ..... Arafat and Rabin signed the treatments which really in justice for palestinian through give up them thier land and palestinian accept them as neighbours .... After that israeli killed Rabin the israeli priminester the man of peace as they said who signed the peace treatments with Arafat but palestinian didnt kill Arafat .... israeli government in fact doesnt want to make peace ... Arafat was a partner and also Abu_Mazen also a partner but in reality israeli government doesnt help them , they want them to give up all things for a little things . all of that ensure what Jamal abdel Nasser said " what taken by power take by power and also make people believe in Hamas principles , so palestinians elect hamas .... i think everyone has to respect palestinian choice because this is democracy .
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ehud Olmert
May 16, 2006 - 06:06 AM
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Your basic premise is wrong - Israel didn't invade in 1948 - Israel declared Independance on the UN mandated territory and the surrounding Arab countries invaded.
I can demonstraite this, but don't have the time now - point is the UN itself declared that Israel was the one being invaded - that siad, obviously the war in 1948 displaced many Palestinians, and in 67 more were displaced.
in the same way, a roughly equivelant amount of Jews were displaced from theie homes in the Arab world in the 50's and the 60's.
this issue requires balance, not finger pointing.
Hamas however, particularly if you see how they are trying to destabilize Jordan, are a radical group that will never make the necissary compromises.
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Adham Khalil
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Re: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ehud Olmert
May 17, 2006 - 09:56 AM
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i think it isn,t important to focus on numbers and dont care about people who forced to leave their homes .... 15 / 5 / 1948 is our NAKBA DAY " CATASTROPHY .... I think that you agree with me that israeli is invaders and occupiers because they have occupied our land ... if the injustice world call hamas a terrorrist movement , what u want palestinian to call for example ARYEAL SHARON who commited crimes against palestinian as in SABRA AND SHATELA REFFUGGEE CAMP MASSACRES ... ANOTHER EXAMPLE THE ISRAELI ARMY WHO KILLS PALESTINIAN CIVIL PEOPLE , CHILREN OLD PEOPLE , WOMAN DESTROY HOMES ETC.............................................................
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Luke Lieberman
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Re:
May 18, 2006 - 01:09 AM
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I am very sorry to hear about your brother.
Please understand that I also know Israelis who have lost thier family, I know Israelis who have metal bolts lodged in their bodies from suicide blasts.
Niether side is going to "clap" for the other, it is not expected and not necissary - they just need to stop killing eachother.
As for the 67 boarder, I think something roughly along the 67 boarder will HAVE to be the final status -
but understand 3 things - 1 - Yassin was responsible for the deaths of MANY Israeli civilians, so while he might be a hero to you, to he was obviously an enemy of Israel -
their assisination of him had nothing to do with his great offers of peace - that is frankly rediculous - Yassin was certainly NOT a man of peace - the way that Abbas probably IS.
2 - A "long-term truce" is bull$h!t - try to see this from an Israeli perspective - you have an organization who is dedicated to your destruction offering a "long term truce"
what does that mean? I means that you back off and they will take the time to get stronger, organize, train, aquire weapons - and when they feel strong enough to fight you they will end the truce and attack.
this will NEVER work.
it is not a matter of a truce - it is a matter of Hamas FULLY recognising Israel's right to exist, signing a PEACE TREATY and the FINAL BOARDERS being negotiated and agreed on.
it is the garuntee that Israel will not be attacked in 20 years, or 40 years or 100 years or 1000 years.
It means PEACE - FULL PEACE, not half measures - nothing else will do.
If I am an Israeli why do I want such a conditional truce? I have the advantage NOW, all such a truce would do is give up my advantage.
3 - while it may still be possible for the Palestinians to claim East Jerusalem as a capital, they will never claim ALL of Jerusalem - you are being unreolistic if you think you will kick Israel out of Jerusalem entirely.
"i ensure that all palestinians want peace but the israeli government doesn't want peace seriously"
Every Israeli I know wants the fighting to end, they would much rather focus on their economy, their families etc than managing 3 million Palestinians who hate them.
I understand how you feel the Israeli government is not interested in peace - but I think it is obvious that the HAMAS government is not interested in peace at all - they refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist in any form.
They have not even signed on to the Arab initiative of full recognition in exchange for the 67 boarder.
Please tell me, seriously what peace offers have you seen Hamas make? How can you say they are interested in Peace if the Destruction of Israel is a basic tenent of their Charter?
Abbas will be the one from Palestine who makes the peace if anyone can - it is heartening a little to see that he is speaking with the Israeli foreign minister this week, at least the dialogue is begining again.
but nagyelali, my friend, I tell you this in all seriousness, if Hamas does not ease its extreme stance toward Israel the Palestinian people will pay the price, the window is closing, at the end of this year the Israelis say they will decide the boarders themselves if Hamas does not recognise them and I beleive they will do it.
what is more, if Hamas does not change their stance, the rest of the world will support the Israelis.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re:
May 18, 2006 - 10:47 AM
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As I said - the issue requires balance and understanding - not finger pointing.
"and dont care about people who forced to leave their homes"
- then why should anyone care that Palestinians were forced to leave THEIR homes?
injustice is not only injustice when it happens to YOU - that is a basic moral principal. You seem to be saying that the suffering of the Palestinians is the only thing that matters and the suffering of the Jews matters not at all
instead of recognising the FACT that your suffering and their suffering are totally connected - and that the pain that groups like Hamas inflict on ordinary Israeli civilians is being returned on you.
You are talking about the murder of women and children - but is there any doubt that Hamas has killed more than its share of innocents - it has in fact TARGETED innocents SPECIFICALLY.
that is WHY it is regarded as a terrorist organization.
If you are wise you will look to Abbas for leadership - he is someone who can ultimately bring the situation to peace.
destroying Israel is a lost cause - creating a nation of Palestine to live along side it - THAT is a worthy ambition.
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Hayk
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Re:
May 18, 2006 - 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by nagyelali
i think it isn,t important to focus on numbers and dont care about people who forced to leave their homes .... 15 / 5 / 1948 is our NAKBA DAY " CATASTROPHY .... I think that you agree with me that israeli is invaders and occupiers because they have occupied our land ... if the injustice world call hamas a terrorrist movement , what u want palestinian to call for example ARYEAL SHARON who commited crimes against palestinian as in SABRA AND SHATELA REFFUGGEE CAMP MASSACRES ... ANOTHER EXAMPLE THE ISRAELI ARMY WHO KILLS PALESTINIAN CIVIL PEOPLE , CHILREN OLD PEOPLE , WOMAN DESTROY HOMES ETC.............................................................
Firstly, in 1947, when the civil war started between Haganah(Israeli secret police created to protect local Jewish population from eventual aggression of Palestinians) and Palestinians, there was no Israel. So its already wrong to say "Israel invaded Palestine" cause there was no Israel at that time but very organized, highly-trained and competent Jewish military forces.
Secondly, as you correctly pointed out, there was no Israel and all territories were inhabited by Palestinians around 1.5 million in 1947 vs. roughly 650.000 Jews at the same time, and the land was called Palestine.
Whereas I agree that the way the state of Israel came to life and its subsequent actions, especially in initiating or inciting (under one or another pretext) most of Arabo-Israeli wars, besides the Yom-Kippur War initiated by Egypt, Syria and Jordan, werent conceived having law and peace in mind, I cannot agree on the point that Israel should disappear.
These territories, centered on Jerusalem, were and still are considered the cradle of all three religions, Islamic, Jewish and Christian. And so far as history in concerned Palestinians and Jews, though the latter being in much smaller numbers, were inhabiting these area since at least 11 century BCE! So Jews and Palestinians can claim the land but as it is now, after all wars and conflicts in the area, the question is how to settle down differences and create a Palestinian state out of the Palestinian Authority!
And Luke is right, if one considers to have any peace in near or distant future, any aggression from both sides should be ceased and parties brought to negotiation table!
Palestine, at this moment, has niether the possibility nor the means nor the right to destroy Israel. Why? Because if we start looking back at all reshapings of especially European nations and which nations took what from other nations, then all nations could start claiming, one way or another, some parts of other countries, especially France would be a good candidate to start reclaiming much of Germany, Belgium; Spain would reclaim the Netherlands; Arabs would start reclaiming most of Iberian Peninsula!
The only difference now is the time: most of major reshapings of the Europe didnt happen in 20th century but before and people live with it...
Conclusion: Palestinian people have to think about common peace with Israelis and vengeance will not lead anywhere but to additional violence and loss of innocent lifes.
H.
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Adham Khalil
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not make people suffering
May 18, 2006 - 11:55 AM
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i think every human refuse punishment to others and also not make people suffering .... but if u allow me asking u a question ... what is u reaction if some one get u out of u home .. kill one of u family or some one u love by cold blood ... destroy u home which u work hardlly to get money for building it .. are u going to clapping for him !
ok , another thing . u know that my brother was killed by israeli soldier by 30 bullets ... that's befor the palestinian authority came back to gaza strip and we accept the peace proccess and forgot our pain because we want to live in peace with israeli ... i think if israeli are serious , they have to withdraw till 1967 borders , so palestinian will establish their independent state and jerusalem is the capital of it . thats what THE MYRTER SHEIKH YASSEN was said when he offered a long armistice with israeli and israeli reply by assassinating him ... i ensure that all palestinians want peace but the israeli government doesn't want peace seriously
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Luke Lieberman
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Hamas takes a shot at Fatah
May 20, 2006 - 12:31 PM
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thought this was interesting - it seems Hamas is not going to settle their disagreements with Fatah with any more honor then they have in anything before they got elected.
these guys are bad news -
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/782611B8-EC36-4101-B74E-5D6570862079.htm
The chief of Palestinian intelligence services has been taken to a hospital in Israel after being seriously injured in a blast at his Gaza headquarters.
Tareq Abu Rajab, the overall head of the Palestinian Authority intelligence services, was with several of his bodyguards in a lift when an explosion ripped through the building in Gaza City on Saturday.
Palestinian security sources accused Hamas, the Islamist movement in government, of being behind what it said was an assassination attempt. Hamas called for calm and said that people should not jump to conclusions about what had happened.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ehud Olmert
May 20, 2006 - 12:33 PM
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Ali Abu Hassira, Abu Rajab's bodyguard and nephew, died of his wounds shortly after the explosion, and at least 15 other people were wounded in the blast and when shots were fired on the convoy transporting Abu Rajab to hospital.
Tawfiq Tirawi, the deputy intelligence services chief, told reporters in Ramallah that the locally manufactured bomb was placed under the floor of the lift.
"We have information that many groups are trying to target leaders of the Palestinian security forces as well as political leaders, including [Palestinian Authority] president Mahmoud Abbas," Tirawi said.
Israeli hospital
Abu Rajab underwent surgery at Shifa where doctors stopped the bleeding and stabilised him before taking him to a hospital inside Israel for further medical treatment.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ehud Olmert
May 20, 2006 - 12:33 PM
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Mourners cried for revenge
during the bodyguard's funeral
A spokesman at the Shifa hospital in Gaza City said: "Abu Rajab has been seriously injured, but his life was not in danger."
Israel's District Co-ordination Office said that Abu Rajab had been transferred to the Ichilov hospital after a "special request by the people of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian leader".
Nabil Abu Rudeina, the Palestinian presidential spokesman, condemned the blast and called for an immediate inquiry into the bombing.
"The assassination attempt of the head of the Palestinian intelligence services chief Tareq Abu Rajab is a serious escalation and an attempt to undermine national security," Abu Rudeina said.
"President Abbas ordered an immediate investigation."
Hamas statement
Ghazi Hamad said that "hasty accusations" should be avoided.
"There was an explosion in an elevator but so far we don't know if it's an assassination attempt. We have to wait and to know precisely what happened and what are the reasons for the explosion," he said.
"People should not make quick judgments and should listen to the voice of wisdom. We don't want to increase the tensions in the Palestinian street."
Said Siam, the interior minister in the Hamas government held an emergency meeting with members of the intelligence services after the explosion.
Abu Rajab, who was appointed by Abbas in April 2005, was seriously wounded in a drive-by shooting in Gaza City in 2004.
During the funeral of Abu Rajab's bodyguard shortly after the attack, hundreds of Fatah supporters fired into the air, shouted slogans against "traitors" and vowed to avange those killed.
In Ramallah, Palestinian gunmen from the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of Abbas's Fatah movement, broke into the parliament compound in protest against the explosion in Gaza, which it blamed on Hamas.
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namesteshanti
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Re: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ehud Olmert
May 20, 2006 - 12:56 PM
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Guys, guys, guys!!! There has been enough death, enough destruction, enough fighting!!!! of course, if someone killed your family, forced you to leave your home you would want revenge! But don't you see? If you go and kill their families and force them to leave their homes you are stepping down to their level! and then, when you get revenge they want revenge for what you did, so they do what they did to your people again! The cycle never stops! By retaliating you are just leading to more deaths of your people! You all just need to stop, I don't care if you're Palistinian or Isralei, just STOP! There has been enough pain, break the cycle, just STOP. peace.
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Adham Khalil
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Re: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ehud Olmert
May 21, 2006 - 11:37 AM
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hiiiiiiiii ..... its good hearing from u talking a bout abu rajab ... execuse me , i dont want to talk about abu rajab beacause all palestinian know him very well . any way i live in gaza and i know the place where the explosion was and i want u to know that its so difficult to enter palestinian intelligence center and we wait the interior report .... on the othe hand , i hope u luke and any one to talk about the israeli siege and closures , assassinatin operation , continued miciles shelling on gaza strip and also about the employees who havent got their sallaries for three months and the famine in palestine .... i thinh if u want to talk about truths , u have to talk about every thing and also to focus on the most important issye not the less .
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Lisa Campbell Salazar
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Re: Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Ehud Olmert
May 23, 2006 - 12:07 AM
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mnopq wrote:
Hi guys!
Recent suicide-bombing in Tel-Aviv by 21 year old university drop-out seems to me rather sad...
recent suicide-bombing by recent droping by university drop-out makes perfect sence. most of the palestinian youth who i talked to when i was there told me that without a university ID card you are an automatic suspect and target for harrasment by the IDF.
one youth from marda dropped out of school and was working as a brick layer in the other town. he had to cross a checkpoint every day to get there, every day risking arrest just for being a palestinian male between the ages of 18-25. when i was there, he was in jail. he wasn't even allowed pens to write his family, and contact was almost impossible.
if that is the treatment young palestinian men face who are out of school, then i really can't blame them for wanting to fight back. some violence is invisable, but it happens everyday and build up until it explodes.
peace in the middle east,
elle.
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