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dromarof
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Is it really God`s word???
February 24, 2006 - 01:44 AM
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Let`s be open minded, and leave all past prejudice aside. I want to discuss the Bible decently, and with an open mind, so that we can get to the bottom of this issue. Is the Bible God`s word? Let`s start.
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dromarof
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
February 25, 2006 - 08:03 AM
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I would like to ask the first question:
Where is it mentioned in the Bible that it is God's word?? Ofcourse, I agree that if the mentioned are Jesus preachings, then are inspired by God, but what about the rest of the Bible?? Jesus sayings constitutes no more than 13% of the Bible, so what about the rest? and what about the frame of the sayings of Jesus?? "Jesus went, and met this, and did that" is this sentence that doesn't contain one word said by Jesus also God's word?? When I tried to find the nature of the Bible, inside the Bible itself, what I found was this:
1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. (Luke 1:1-4) New International Version.
This is the tastemony of one of the 4 gospel writers, he says that he wrote this because everybody else has been telling what happened, and he thinks he has more credibility to tell what really happened.
Any comments??
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dromarof
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
February 26, 2006 - 09:32 AM
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O.K., since I have gotten no comments on my previous question, I would like to ask another. Everytime I go into discussion with a Christian about the Bible, I am told that the Holy Ghost inspired all those who wrote the Bible, and that is why it is considered God`s word. I can accept the difference in the concept of literal revelation, and the concept of revelation of the subject and then the inspired person is free to put it in his own words, I can accept again that 2 persons telling the same story will tell it differently. I don`t believe in this concept regarding the word of God, and I believe that God`s word should be a literal revelation, but I am ready to accept this difference in concepts. But, can anybody tell me please, why in the book of Matthew, and the book of Luke, they both mentioned 66 names to be the ancestors of Jesus, among these 66 names, only 1 name is common, and that is Joseph the carpenter, the other 65 names are completly different?? Who is is mistaken?? Matthew?? Luke?? or the Holy Ghost?? Just wondering.
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Neeka
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
February 27, 2006 - 05:14 AM
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The content and structure of each supposedly is arbitrary to suit the evangelist's purpose. Although it is true that Matthew lists twenty-six progenitors between David and Jesus, compared with Luke's forty, two factors must be kept in mind. First, it is not uncommon for the generations in one line of descent to increase more rapidly than in another.
Second, and more important, in Jewish thinking son might mean "grandson," or, even more generally, "descendant" (as "Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham," Matt. 1:1). Similarly, begat (rendered by the patter "'X' [was] the father of 'Y'" in the New International Version, Matt. 1:2-16) does not necessarily mean "was the actual (that is, immediate) father of" but instead may simply indicate real descent.
Even personal characteristics may have influenced the difference. Matthew was the tax collector, more educated, may have paid more attention to detail. He may have wanted to emphasize different people in Jesus' lineage than Luke for the same reason that you mentioned, different people find different things more important and tell the same story two different ways.
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dromarof
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
February 27, 2006 - 08:30 AM
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Thank you Shanee for your post. I definitely agree with you, there are many ways of telling the story in words, but not in incidents. When I tell the story that I was walking the street, and I met Shanee and Jack, and then Jack tells the same story, but says that he met Only dromarof, Shanee wasn`t there. Do you think this is the same story in different ways?? Or either me, or Jack is mistaken?? Which??
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dromarof
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
March 2, 2006 - 08:57 AM
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So regarding my last post, I would like to know, which version of the (going to the tomb on sunday morning) story is the correct one. If you read John`s version, it is completely different than the others!! It is not different way of telling the story, it is different incidents, not just in secondary characters, but concerning Jesus himself. One version mentions that Mary Magdelene met Jesus, the other mentions her finding the tomb empty and running to tell the apostles. Which is correct? And why there is contradiction if the source is the same?? Who is mistaken?? Was the Holy Ghost confused??
The way I see it (this is my personal opinion, which I don`t commit anyone to), that the bible, which was written after the apostles, and Jesus himself, is a form of the narration of events that occurred, narrated by the apostles, to other people, who later decided documenting what they heard, and due to the time lapse, and difference in individuals, the difference occured in the events narrated.
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dromarof
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
March 6, 2006 - 07:40 AM
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I have been waiting for an answer or an explaination for my post, but have been recieving none. I don't know is this because nobody is interested, or because nobody has an answer or explaination.
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dromarof
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
March 7, 2006 - 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by shanee
The content and structure of each supposedly is arbitrary to suit the evangelist's purpose. Although it is true that Matthew lists twenty-six progenitors between David and Jesus, compared with Luke's forty, two factors must be kept in mind. First, it is not uncommon for the generations in one line of descent to increase more rapidly than in another.
Second, and more important, in Jewish thinking son might mean "grandson," or, even more generally, "descendant" (as "Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham," Matt. 1:1). Similarly, begat (rendered by the patter "'X' [was] the father of 'Y'" in the New International Version, Matt. 1:2-16) does not necessarily mean "was the actual (that is, immediate) father of" but instead may simply indicate real descent.
I tend to disagree with you. If you read carefully, Matthew counted 28 generations from Jesus to David, while Luke counted more than 35. As you mentioned, Matthew was thourough enough to mention that there were 14 generations between Abraham and David, and another 14, and another 14. What I understood that these are the names of the people between Abraham and Jesus. Now, Luke mentioned all the names up to God (Adam the son of God, which also shows that Jesus being son of God in the Bible is metaphorical), so how come there are no common names with Matthew??
Even personal characteristics may have influenced the difference. Matthew was the tax collector, more educated, may have paid more attention to detail. He may have wanted to emphasize different people in Jesus' lineage than Luke for the same reason that you mentioned, different people find different things more important and tell the same story two different ways. [/B][/QUOTE]
I 100% agree with you, does this mean there are individual variations?? Does this also mean the source is not the same??
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dromarof
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huh?
March 7, 2006 - 06:11 AM
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Originally posted by qnp
this post doesn't belong in this forum. unless we are talking about the bible in realation to cultural diversity and equity. and which bible are you talking about anyways? can someone please move this thread.
elle.
No comment!!
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Lisa Campbell Salazar
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huh?
March 7, 2006 - 09:21 AM
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this post doesn't belong in this forum. unless we are talking about the bible in realation to cultural diversity and equity. and which bible are you talking about anyways? can someone please move this thread.
elle.
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A. Tsang
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
March 25, 2006 - 02:27 AM
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Imagine thousands yrs ago some middle easterner encountered god but god is something beyond our dimension. They try to wrote a book and describe what they've encountered. This book is now call "The bible" in English.
I think the real conflicts are sourced from the different interpretations of "GOD".
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dromarof
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
April 11, 2006 - 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by cheetaih
Imagine thousands yrs ago some middle easterner encountered god but god is something beyond our dimension. They try to wrote a book and describe what they've encountered. This book is now call "The bible" in English.
I couldn't agree more! the words "They try to write a book" is the main theme of the thread.
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dromarof
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
April 27, 2006 - 03:28 AM
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Long time, no posts, I wonder why? Anyway, here is something that might be intresting:
In the RSV by ﾒCollinsﾓ notes on the books of the bible, a
are to be found at the back of their production.
Who is the author of:
the book of "JOSHUA?" Answer: "Major part credited to Joshua."
book of "JUDGES?" Answer: "Possibly Samuel."
author of "RUTH" Answer: "Not definitely known"
1ST SAMUEL?......................................
Answer: Author "Unknown"
2ND SAMUEL.......................................
Answer: Author "Unknown"
1ST KING?..........................................
Answer: Author "Unknown"
2ND KING?.........................................
Answer: Author "Unknown"
And it keeps going like that to the end of the OT.
Please check ﾒCOLLINSﾓ R.S.V, 1971, P. 12 to 17
Now, please tell me what reliability does this book have?? I agree that it is as old as could be, and from the time of Moses, before and after, I will not object, but don`t tell me it is from God!!!! I agree, that as the NT contain preaching from Jesus inspired to him by God, the OT might also contain the teaching of Moses, some of his prophecies, and the commandments which are also not far from the teachings or rules of Islam, which are also from God, but what about the rest?? Eveybody keeps accusing anyone who is pointing to contradictions that he is fishing for mistakes, but doesn`t all these contradictions prove it is not from the same source?? Regarding the prophets in the OT. Please reason with me for a minute here, if you are the principal of a school, or its owner, will you higher a drunken teacher to show the students that drinking is bad?? Come on, please use your sense, it is extremely unacceptable. People who wrote this wanted to make an excuse for themselves through smearing all the prophets with all types of sins. Howcome most of the sins, especially incest and adultery are committed by prophets?? Will you give it to your 10 year old daughter to read? or would you censor the word of God? Please check the preface of almost every Bible version, you will find in the preface, that previous mistakes in .. version had been avoided, and that this current version had been rightly edited. The word of God is under continuous editing!!!
Please open your Google search engine, and enter the following without the brackets of course ( 50000+errors+bible), do you know what you will get? A scanned page from the (Awake) magazine 1957, stating that there is over 50,000 grave errors in the Bible, and that this article is based on an article in Look magazine in 1952. Can you imagine that? 50000 serious errors in the bible, will you attribute these errors to God??
How many gospels had been found? And how many of them are in the NT? What are the criteria of enclosing or discarding in and out of the Bible? I think it all depended on what type of idea is the gospel supporting, or at least not denying. I think everyone should read, analyze and reconsider.
Peace.
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dromarof
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Just pumping some heat
May 14, 2006 - 11:40 AM
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All Biblical scholar agree that the Bible was written after the departure of Jesus peace be upon him by his followers. Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:
"..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."
"It is Human, Yet Divine," W Graham Scroggie, p. 17
Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:
"...Not so the New testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history..."
"The Call of the Minaret," Kenneth Cragg, p 277
"It is well known that the primitive Christian Gospel was initially transmitted by word of mouth and that this oral tradition resulted in variant reporting of word and deed. It is equally true that when the Christian record was committed to writing it continued to be the subject of verbal variation. Involuntary and intentional, at the hands of scribes and editors"
Peake's Commentary on the Bible, p. 633
"Yet, as a matter of fact, every book of the New Testament with the exception of the four great Epistles of St. Paul is at present more or less the subject of controversy, and interpolations are asserted even in these."
Encyclopaedia Brittanica, 12th Ed. Vol. 3, p. 643
Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity was himself driven to admit that:
"[the New Testament had] in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually written"
Secrets of Mount Sinai, James Bentley, p. 117
After listing many examples of contradictory statements in the Bible, Dr. Frederic Kenyon says:
"Besides the larger discrepancies, such as these, there is scarcely a verse in which there is not some variation of phrase in some copies [of the ancient manuscripts from which the Bible has been collected]. No one can say that these additions or omissions or alterations are matters of mere indifference"
Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts, Dr. Frederic Kenyon, Eyre and Spottiswoode, p. 3
This post was edited on: 2006-07-05 at 10:54 AM by: dromarof
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Prince Charles Jiduwah
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Re: Is it really God`s word???
May 23, 2006 - 03:00 PM
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The Bible is an account of what happened so many years ago, The words there are totally and un-compromisingly inspired by God through His Holy Spirit. Its a book that fore-told the future, this was possible because it of the relvelations that were given to man by his creator.
This post was edited on: 2006-05-23
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