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Harmony Hussey
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If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
February 11, 2006 - 02:12 AM
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Capitalism is obviously not working out for the world. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.
And socialism, despite its beautiful vision, failed to deliver what it promised, due to 4 fatal flaws (1, the difficulty of central planning; 2, trouble getting people motivated to work hard; 3, no incentive to invent things; 4, the liklihood of corruption when the economy is centralized.)
SO DOES THIS MEAN THERE IS NO HOPE? DOES THIS MEAN THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE?
NO!
THERE IS HOPE; THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE! PARECON is that.
Chech out a summary of parecon at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parecon
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Osagie O.
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
May 23, 2006 - 05:57 AM
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I think the capitalism and the communism both contain the potential for a nearly perfect world. The problem I see is that in a world in which every individual lives and works for itself, independent of the system, an harmonic together cannot be established. We need a cultural revolution, in which the entire mentality changes. (No, I mean something else and I'm not alluding to what happened in China.)
Take a look at the ant: Their system is something like a monarchy but still every has enough to eat and is happy, (that is if ants are capable of being happy).
I don't know, something like a modern religion could do the job.
This post was edited on: 2006-05-23
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Natalie Chan
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
June 17, 2006 - 02:28 AM
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some people say that communism (not so much the communistic countries that has turned out so far, more like the one Marx was talking about) would happen eventually? when the populace is ready for it?
i have no idea. but i'm sick of capitalism + socialism too.
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Osagie O.
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
June 17, 2006 - 05:57 PM
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Marx's breakdown of capitalism
Well Marx thought that the market would disable itself. He thought that with time machines would take over most of the jobs so that more and more people would lose their profession. This would force people to sell their work far cheaper, to keep up with the machines. So Marx thought that the majority consisting of people from the low class would continuously earn less and therefore wouldn't be able to buy the expensive goods, produced by the factories and machines of the high class.
Marx thought that therefore the hole thing had to collapse in a world-wide communistic revolution. Obviously it didn't.
Anyhow I think the perfect communism is possible after all:
Manipulating emotions
I herd of an experiment lately whereat a stimulating probe was attached at the part of the brain that is responsible for the... most special moment. Since experiments of this kind are forbidden on humans, a rat was picked. It was placed in a cage with a button to activate the probe itself... Finally the rat died of hunger since it didn't find any time left to eat. It went on pressing that button as long as it could.
Apart from the question of whether or not such experiments can be justified, I think the result opens up a great new perspective, the manipulation of our emotions. Think about it: All bad emotions could be cleared out. Since emotions could be manipulated it would be possible to do all those unpleasant tasks with the feeling of total happiness. You could eat the most healthiest but disgusting food and program your probes to make them taste like sweet honey. You could program your probes to make you fall in love with your partner time after time again… and to avoid the terrible feeling of missing him, you could program the probes to make you lose that love for him every time he left the house. Or after a succer-match the fans of the defeated team could be programmed to love being defeated.
Taking this the communism had a real good chance of succeeding, since no one any longer had a reason to be egoistic. Ironically it just wouldn’t be necessary anymore, since everyone would be happy with capitalism anyhow… ;-)
This post was edited on: 2006-06-17 at 06:00 PM by: OPK
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Волк Апокалипси
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
June 28, 2006 - 01:15 PM
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 Comrades it is a simple matter to discredit capitalism or comunisim or socialism but what we keep forgetting is that we cannot just think about economics! We are at a crux in history in which our human civilisation could go either way into a golden era or fal into a crisis as like they world has never seen and this has many causes. 1. with the current form of capitalism in power we (and here i speak for all the good peoples of the world) are using resources at an insane rate which will quickly destroy our planet if we do not slow down. We need to centralize the proletariat's resources and form and organization for global energy regulation.
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Livs
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
June 28, 2006 - 01:28 PM
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Both Capitalism and Communism share a common ideal which is that of the state. Capitalism is slowly moving away from the state into a wold run by corporations, but essentially there is still a leader (State, Corporations) and a subject (worker, consumers). Taking this into consideration ideally there should be full blown democracy: 1issue, 1 vote, communal power. n The Take by Naomi Klein shows how such a democracy can work when all are equals, and there is a communal decision making process, and consent among everyone. It might sound like Utopia however, it has worked on a smaller scale in Argentina; it is not impossible for it to work globally. Aspects of Parecon could certainly also be integrated to some aspect, but Capitalism and the eternal pursuit for profit definitely need to go.
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Hayk
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
June 29, 2006 - 01:11 PM
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SovietDragon wrote:
Comrades it is a simple matter to discredit capitalism or comunisim or socialism but what we keep forgetting is that we cannot just think about economics!
Why are you putting into teh same basket communism, capitalism and democracy. Democracy and communism are comparable but you shouldnt put with them also capitalism..comparable to capitalism is the command economy (mostly in communist countries)!
We are at a crux in history in which our human civilisation could go either way into a golden era or fal into a crisis as like they world has never seen and this has many causes.
It will fall into crisis, be sure of that..
it is inevitable.. why cause when you give someone 100 dollars for one month of work and then next month you give him 200 and the month after 300 that person will get used to 300.. then for the fourth mont if you try to give him 150 (50 more than his salary 3 month ago) he will not take it and unexpected(or rather perfectly expected) things will happen.. such as leaving the work etc..
Moral: we advanced so much and we stil laccelerate.. thre is no way back.. noone will take it.. everyone will forget what we had 20 years ago...and will require more and mroe and more...
1. with the current form of capitalism in power we (and here i speak for all the good peoples of the world) are using resources at an insane rate which will quickly destroy our planet if we do not slow down. We need to centralize the proletariat's resources and form and organization for global energy regulation.
Capitalism evolved since its inception and it was perfectly expected.. there is nothing unexpected in that..what is unexpected is that reaction and the realisation of the fact of its evolving...
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Hayk
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
June 29, 2006 - 01:19 PM
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Livs wrote:
Both Capitalism and Communism share a common ideal which is that of the state. Capitalism is slowly moving away from the state into a wold run by corporations, but essentially there is still a leader (State, Corporations) and a subject (worker, consumers). Taking this into consideration ideally there should be full blown democracy: 1issue, 1 vote, communal power. n The Take by Naomi Klein shows how such a democracy can work when all are equals, and there is a communal decision making process, and consent among everyone. It might sound like Utopia however, it has worked on a smaller scale in Argentina; it is not impossible for it to work globally. Aspects of Parecon could certainly also be integrated to some aspect, but Capitalism and the eternal pursuit for profit definitely need to go.
I again dont see why you interwin so tightly democracy and capitalism... One doesnt necessarily imply the other... Take Dubai or even Saudi Arabia for that matter... There economy is in certain sense more capitalistic then many of Eruopean ones. Their statehood is that of dictatorship or kingdom...
Other examples can be found...
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Bohemian Bonnie
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
June 29, 2006 - 08:44 PM
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We need a global Consciousness shift, of being aware that we are a citizen, a living being of this Earth, and bring back A living in harmony, with the cycles of Life. We got to assume our responsibility of being citizens of this world, in the now. Have a read on The Mayan Calendar for a try. I love the interpretations of these prophecies...
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That guy
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
September 23, 2006 - 12:42 AM
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souljour wrote:
Capitalism is obviously not working out for the world. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.
And socialism, despite its beautiful vision, failed to deliver what it promised, due to 4 fatal flaws (1, the difficulty of central planning; 2, trouble getting people motivated to work hard; 3, no incentive to invent things; 4, the liklihood of corruption when the economy is centralized.)
SO DOES THIS MEAN THERE IS NO HOPE? DOES THIS MEAN THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE?
NO!
THERE IS HOPE; THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE! PARECON is that.
Chech out a summary of parecon at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parecon
Sounds like my type of utopia! Still, if I was redesigning society I would let capitalism run free most of the time and make sure that total public control was only exercised to corral misbehaving corporations, or to make large corporations do unprofitable things like building roads or running space programs. The populous would use corporations like livestock, instead of allowing them to use the people. Imagine...
Also think that it might be difficult to transition from pyramidal social structure to essentially flat without violence.
Any ideas?
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Richard Davis
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
October 1, 2006 - 09:01 AM
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When Communism collapsed in the early 1990's, the English voice of Radio Moscow, Vladimir Posner, toured America telling us that communism was like Chritstanity--It hadn't failed; it hadn't been tried. He was wrong on both counts. But fact is that the reason capitalism hasn't delivered all it could is that it hasn't been tried--in the area of job selection and pricing. Because we are afraid of a free market for labor, we surround and buffer it with all kinds of "safeguards" which end up raising the price of labor just enough to generate permanent unemployment at the bottom. (I'm speaking of unemployment in developed countries.) And poverty is nothing more or less than institutionalized unemployment. For a discussion of what causes unemployment and how to cure it, I invite you to visit http.//www.wipeoutpoverty.com.
This post was edited on: 2006-10-01 at 09:03 AM by: newideaman
This post was edited on: 2006-10-01 at 09:05 AM by: newideaman
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That guy
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One big rat race
October 3, 2006 - 01:15 AM
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newideaman wrote:
When Communism collapsed in the early 1990's, the English voice of Radio Moscow, Vladimir Posner, toured America telling us that communism was like Chritstanity--It hadn't failed; it hadn't been tried. He was wrong on both counts. But fact is that the reason capitalism hasn't delivered all it could is that it hasn't been tried--in the area of job selection and pricing. Because we are afraid of a free market for labor, we surround and buffer it with all kinds of "safeguards" which end up raising the price of labor just enough to generate permanent unemployment at the bottom. (I'm speaking of unemployment in developed countries.) And poverty is nothing more or less than institutionalized unemployment. For a discussion of what causes unemployment and how to cure it, I invite you to visit http.//www.wipeoutpoverty.com.
This post was edited on: 2006-10-01 at 09:03 AM by: newideaman
This post was edited on: 2006-10-01 at 09:05 AM by: newideaman
Think of the poor man as a rat turning a wheel. You want to dangle a piece of cheese in front of him to make it run, but if you ever let him catch the cheese the rat will stop running unless you dangle something tastier.
In America, most native born caucasians have already caught the economic cheese and have reasonably comfy lives and can ensure their children get into good schools etc. We have to import fresh "rats" (no offense. just an analogy) from Mexico who are still hungry enough to chase anything edible for long periods of time, unlike the fat and lazy American rats. There is no incentive to erase Mexican poverty; it would be an economic disaster unless we could find more cheap labor.
Incidentally, an almost totally free market has already been tried, in America in the late 19th century. There were still taxes, but zero taxes wouldn't have stopped abusive trusts and rampant speculation/bust cycles instead of prosperity. Everyone should read Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle, although there are nonfictionalized accounts in any uncensored history textbook. It amazes me that people keep chasing the "dream" of laissez-faire Capitalism despite the elusiveness of an end to poverty. Almost like hungry rats chasing a piece of cheese...
My whiskers tell me those pieces of Swiss they dangle in front of us smell like plastic anyway.
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Hayk
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
October 9, 2006 - 01:36 PM
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It is a fact that that political system has a positive correlation with the adopted economic system of a country. With the exception of few places in the world (for example Dubai) a necessary layer underlying a would-be fourishing economic system, be it capitalism or anything else, lies in the choice of the political system.
Democracy when it is imposed prematurely on societies that have high birthrates, low literacy, profound ethnic and religious factionalism, and unstable economies, is not a cure. A salient example of failed attempt to impose democracy are Iraq and most of Middle East where the US has failed.
There is such a thing as Benevolent Despotism (which I think incorporates not only political but also economic system), which has seen itslf rise in 18th century and proved, at the time, to be quite efficient for concerned societies. it is argued that this stage is a necessary step for societies which are coveting democracy but have been unable to achieve it due to their "squalid" situations.
So the Benevolent Despotism, with its underlying economic system, might be an effective alternative to both (imposed)capitalism or (theoretical) parecon.
Read more in R.D. Kaplan's "Was democracy just a moment?," Atlantic Monthly, Dec 1997, pp. 55-80
and F. Zakaria's "The future of Freedom: Illiberal democracy at Home and Abroad."
H.
This post was edited on: 2006-10-09 at 01:42 PM by: mnopq
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Yvette Dubel
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
October 22, 2006 - 12:58 PM
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i posted this elsewhere but i'm sharing a bit of it here as well because i'd very much appreciate your feedback on it.
The previous thread was about the shift in paradigm with regard to how the situation is viewed and solutions developed.
i feel one core change has to be defining people by what they lack rather than what they have because that is the core of devaluing the individual at every level.
Since my work is based on this radical way of revisioning the capitalistic framework i'm working to expand my writings and case studies using my Cultural Fusion series as the vehicles. And the Comfusion site that is underconstruction is the backbone for the ICT component in several other projects that stemmed from the what is peace project
This project is distinctive because it's focus in on manifesting AS we reserach instead of focusing on research alone and discussing it to death BEFORE doing anything with what we know.
The core concept i'd like you to consider is this: Developing work that shares informed insight into the impact on the social and business landscape when unique attention and awareness as expressed in exclusive products which represent creativity as an asset within a re-envisioning of the capitalist framework that embraces radical inclusion in a philosophical and economic approach.
FIrst how would you express this idea in your own words?
Second how can you assist me in connecting with groups in your area that'd benefit from and enhance the work we're doing?
Third, how can my work help you personally?
Your time and attention to this dialogue is very much appreciated....Thank you.
Only the best,
Yvette
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manosijm
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Re: If not capitalism or socialsm, then what? - Parecon!
February 20, 2007 - 03:30 PM
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Who says capitalism is not working? Just because of some sore losers we can't say the system is bad.
If the mammoths were around, they would probably complain about evolution. Right.
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