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Arslan Jumaniyazov
beigetreten: May 13, 2004
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 19, 2006 - 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by luke
"But I still would like you to comment on 100,000 pro-Israeli demonstrators booing Wolfowitz for mentioning "Palestinian suffering." " - Arslan
what explaination is there exactly? Seems kind of self explanitory
I don't condone it. But I would point out that there are PLENTY of rallies in the Muslim world where the "suffering of the Israel's" would draw a far stronger reaction.
There are plenty of rallies where even aknowldging Israel's right to exist would get the speaker thrown off stage.
There was a massive demonstraition in Iran recently where the president of that country said Israel should be "wiped off the map" - I seriously doubt anyone at the pro-Israel rally made similar comments about he Palestinians.
If any speaker at that rally in Iran suggested they also consider the suffering of Israeli's - what do you imagine the reaction would be?
I can also point you to a number of American Jewish organizations dedicated to easing the suffering of the Palestinians - can you point me to ANY Muslims groups dedicated to stopping the violence against the Israeli's???
For that matter can you please find me ANY Muslim groups dedicated to ending the genocide in Darfur?
I am glad that at least you said you don't condone it.
Good luck with your project!
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
beigetreten: Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 19, 2006 - 10:43 AM
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"But I still would like you to comment on 100,000 pro-Israeli demonstrators booing Wolfowitz for mentioning "Palestinian suffering." " - Arslan
what explaination is there exactly? Seems kind of self explanitory
I don't condone it. But I would point out that there are PLENTY of rallies in the Muslim world where the "suffering of the Israel's" would draw a far stronger reaction.
There are plenty of rallies where even aknowldging Israel's right to exist would get the speaker thrown off stage.
There was a massive demonstraition in Iran recently where the president of that country said Israel should be "wiped off the map" - I seriously doubt anyone at the pro-Israel rally made similar comments about he Palestinians.
If any speaker at that rally in Iran suggested they also consider the suffering of Israeli's - what do you imagine the reaction would be?
I can also point you to a number of American Jewish organizations dedicated to easing the suffering of the Palestinians - can you point me to ANY Muslims groups dedicated to stopping the violence against the Israeli's???
For that matter can you please find me ANY Muslim groups dedicated to ending the genocide in Darfur?
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mnopq
beigetreten: Dec 20, 2005
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 19, 2006 - 10:48 AM
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hello guys and girls!
as promised for people like Luke and Arslan below the Special report on American intelligence frmo The Economist of March 2005!
"...When it comes to recruitment and filing intelligence from the field, quantity has often mattered most. In cold-war Africa, American spooks allegedly paid for the same information obtained for nothing by American diplomats over lunch. One recent case-officer, Lindsay Moran, says she was aware that an agent she was running in the Balkans was peddling worthless information, but she was repeatedly refused permission to end the contact. “It gets depressing,” she said. “You start to wonder whether we can do anything good at all.”
More recent events have brought shame on the intelligence agencies as a whole. They failed to predict both the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 and the Soviet Union's break-up a decade later. In 1998, America's spies were taken by surprise when India tested a nuclear bomb; they then advised Bill Clinton to flatten one of Sudan's few medicine factories, wrongly believing that it made nerve gas. The next year, on the agencies' mistaken advice, an American warplane bombed China's embassy in Belgrade.
The two main prompts to reform, however, have been the September 11th attacks, in which some 3,000 Americans died, and the spooks' hallucinations about Iraq's weapons programmes, which were used to justify a war and bloody peace that have cost tens of thousands of lives. The fallout from Iraq—especially a report by the Senate Intelligence Committee last year, which accused the agencies of “a lack of information-sharing, poor management, and inadequate intelligence collection”—forced George Tenet, the CIA's second-longest-serving boss, to resign in June. ..."
read it all here:
http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3764630
You can find there also the British intelligence report..
Cheers,
H.
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al-kafir
beigetreten: Feb 5, 2006
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 19, 2006 - 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by mnopq
hello guys and girls!
as promised for people like Luke and Arslan below the Special report on American intelligence frmo The Economist of March 2005!
"...When it comes to recruitment and filing intelligence from the field, quantity has often mattered most. In cold-war Africa, American spooks allegedly paid for the same information obtained for nothing by American diplomats over lunch. One recent case-officer, Lindsay Moran, says she was aware that an agent she was running in the Balkans was peddling worthless information, but she was repeatedly refused permission to end the contact. “It gets depressing,” she said. “You start to wonder whether we can do anything good at all.”
More recent events have brought shame on the intelligence agencies as a whole. They failed to predict both the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 and the Soviet Union's break-up a decade later. In 1998, America's spies were taken by surprise when India tested a nuclear bomb; they then advised Bill Clinton to flatten one of Sudan's few medicine factories, wrongly believing that it made nerve gas. The next year, on the agencies' mistaken advice, an American warplane bombed China's embassy in Belgrade.
The two main prompts to reform, however, have been the September 11th attacks, in which some 3,000 Americans died, and the spooks' hallucinations about Iraq's weapons programmes, which were used to justify a war and bloody peace that have cost tens of thousands of lives. The fallout from Iraq—especially a report by the Senate Intelligence Committee last year, which accused the agencies of “a lack of information-sharing, poor management, and inadequate intelligence collection”—forced George Tenet, the CIA's second-longest-serving boss, to resign in June. ..."
read it all here:
http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3764630
You can find there also the British intelligence report..
Cheers,
H.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, mnopq. Obviously, there have been intelligence failures and the means and methods to resolve the causes of those failures are being addressed. That’s an endorsement of the free and open inquiry afforded by Western governments.
I would suggest that 9/11 has spurred my government to re-think it’s national security policies and in fact, the various intelligence agencies are coming under scrutiny. I applaud that as we will become better equipped to thwart attacks by Islamic terrorists.
The fact is, the only way to achieve 100% security is to achieve 100% control over the population. This is a free country. People can travel and do as they will, as long as it is within the law. Islamic terrorists can achieve plots, a piece at a time, by staying within those laws, at least in gathering and assembling information and materials. 9/11 wasn't so much an intelligence failure (though there was an element of that as well) as much as it was Muslims taking advantage of the law and doing so in a manner than attracted little attention. It's a trade-off, balancing security and freedom, yet when you think about it, freedom has prevailed for 250 years with very few security failures. Unlike true tyranny, the US takes the smallest steps necessary to create security. Think about how Saddam would have reacted to a terrorist attack in Iraq or the response of the oppressive Theocrats in Iran to an attack, for example. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, would have died in the crackdown afterwards and their suffering would have increased for years. Our freedom does make us a target, but it's a risk we are willing to live with.
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mnopq
beigetreten: Dec 20, 2005
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 20, 2006 - 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by luke
mnopq -
I read Al Jazeera EVERY DAY online (today they are headlining with Hamas going to Russia). I read the Guardian EVERY DAY.
I am no more a victim of my media than you are of yours.
So we are, I also read Aljazeera, Guardian, and International Herald, plus also the BBC UK.
"saying that American policies are not as good as you think they are it means that there is something wrong, maybe not totally, but at least partially" - mnopq
You don't seem to understnd me at all - I don't support Bush at all - I think he is basically the worst President since Nixon.
I know you dont! I didnt say you did, its just you defend fervently certain aspects of his policy such as "war against terrorism" that I start doubting already. But i supposed you didnt support Bush from the beginning.
The concept of "war against terrorism" is faulty. There should be other policy of fighting an amrph mass called terrorism, not a standard warlike approach!
I am not in favor of the war in Iraq - at least as it was executed - I didn't have a problem with knocking over Saddam, but such things have to be done with great care and wisdom and the Administraition tried to do it on the cheap.
I think for all the blood and treasure - we will end up handing Iraq over to Iran - which is lunacy.
I dont think so, I think the US government will rather stay there for another 10 years than give it to Iran. ITs not bbeneficial under all angles plus consdering the existing Shia and Sunni differences in IRaqi and Iranian communities I am not sure there will ever be a possible "merger" of those two.
Iraq is too "afraid" to of its own Shia community to let Iran in.
Cheers,
H.
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Sarah
beigetreten: Jul 19, 2003
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 25, 2006 - 08:09 AM
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Sorry for my late reply, am in the mist of studying for mid-term exams so I am going to be brief here.
You don't think that those people who bombed a Pakistani village or a building with only black people are racist? Okey. Fine. But then give us your explanation. What was the reason that some police officials decided to sacrifice the lives of innocent black people and some CIA officials decided to sacrifice the lives of innocent Pakistani people. ]
Glad you caught on to your our mistake. So next time, quote articles that specified ‘some.’ And you got me, that quote is confirming that there is racism involved.
But instead of answering the question, you seem to be wanting me not to ask questions, or not to post articles that ask such questions. ]
I seem so huh. Well I suggest you work on your reading comprehension skills. My purposes I state straight forward and right to the point. There are no hidden meanings to decipher or to conclude what I ‘seem’ to be inquiring. Quit taking things so personally. Can I not pose questions?
What do you want me to be tolerance of, sarah-nasser? Do you want me to be tolerant of CIA officials who have conducted at least 19 operations in which untold number of innocent people -- a significant number, according to LA Times report -- alongside 4 Al-Qaeda senior officials were killed?
Or do you want me to be tolerant of seeing my Muslim brethren being wrongly tortured at Guantanamo (reminder: according to LA Times Editorial that I posted, many of people there have been wrongly captured)? ]
You can’t characterize CIA officials as being the ones who have done those things. There are many who do good. And that applies in any field ranging from medical doctors to construction workers. And no, I don’t expect you or anyone else to tolerate inhumane acts of any kind. There should be a stance against it in a civil manner.
This is amazing. When I quote Blum who said "The victims were all black of course. So let's rephrase the question. Can it be imagined that American officials would fire a missile into a residential area of Beverly Hills or the upper east side of Manhattan?," you say that I am accusing America of racism. You also accuse myself in racism because of the same quote. But are you merely asking me a question? That's very interesting. ]
Glad you find it amazing.
The above hardly sounds like a mere question. It is a straightforward accusation.
My apologize for you thinking I was accusing you of something but I did not mean any harm but was it in an accusational tone? Don’t take things so personally and offensively. If you do, that means you have a lot of insecurity. And you won’t survive very long in a discussion board such as this.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
beigetreten: May 13, 2004
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 26, 2006 - 02:47 AM
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Originally posted by sarah-nasser
Sorry for my late reply, am in the mist of studying for mid-term exams so I am going to be brief here.
No problem. I am a student, too. I understand. 
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You don't think that those people who bombed a Pakistani village or a building with only black people are racist? Okey. Fine. But then give us your explanation. What was the reason that some police officials decided to sacrifice the lives of innocent black people and some CIA officials decided to sacrifice the lives of innocent Pakistani people. ]
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Glad you caught on to your our mistake. So next time, quote articles that specified ‘some.’ And you got me, that quote is confirming that there is racism involved.
Sarah-nasser, I specified "some" for you since you misunderstood both the article and me. Neither Blum in his article, nor I ever generalized about all America.
You may actually look at my older posts where I often made a distinction between various Americans, between ordinary citizens and the government actions, etc. I specified that Blum was talking about "some" Americans because it's clear in his article that he was talking about some Americans, not all.
quote:
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But instead of answering the question, you seem to be wanting me not to ask questions, or not to post articles that ask such questions. ]
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I seem so huh. Well I suggest you work on your reading comprehension skills. My purposes I state straight forward and right to the point. There are no hidden meanings to decipher or to conclude what I ‘seem’ to be inquiring. Quit taking things so personally. Can I not pose questions?
I don't think I need to work on my reading comprehension skills more than you do. There are actually hidden meanings to decipher or to conclude what you seem, sarah-nasser. On one hand, you claim to merely ask a question. On the other hand, your question was in accusational tone. You don't merely ask someone "But isn't racism and intolerance the same thing you are doing with this and your other posts?" Do you? Then, in your other post, to my words "If you think I have expressed racism or intolerance, show me where I did so," you answered, "Sure" and quoted from Blum's article that I had posted. So, when you say "Sure," you obviously claim that I had expressed racism and intolerance.
Do you see the puzzle of your posts? One one hand, you claim to merely ask a question; from the other hand, you accuse me of racism and intolerance. My objection to your question was not that you asked, but I wanted to know what was the basis of your question. Based on what, you asked "isn't racism and intolerance the same thing you are doing with this and your other posts?"? [emphasis added) I really would like to know where in my other posts I expressed or implied anything racist or intolerant.
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What do you want me to be tolerance of, sarah-nasser? Do you want me to be tolerant of CIA officials who have conducted at least 19 operations in which untold number of innocent people -- a significant number, according to LA Times report -- alongside 4 Al-Qaeda senior officials were killed?
Or do you want me to be tolerant of seeing my Muslim brethren being wrongly tortured at Guantanamo (reminder: according to LA Times Editorial that I posted, many of people there have been wrongly captured)? ]
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You can’t characterize CIA officials as being the ones who have done those things. There are many who do good. And that applies in any field ranging from medical doctors to construction workers. And no, I don’t expect you or anyone else to tolerate inhumane acts of any kind. There should be a stance against it in a civil manner.
Sarah-nasser, I don't think there is anything we disagree with each other here. Of course, there are doctors and construction workers and other people who are doing good things. I didn't characterize CIA was with them. What I was talking about was the CIA assassination attacks, which killed scores of civilians. We actually don't know how many civilians.
quote:
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This is amazing. When I quote Blum who said "The victims were all black of course. So let's rephrase the question. Can it be imagined that American officials would fire a missile into a residential area of Beverly Hills or the upper east side of Manhattan?," you say that I am accusing America of racism. You also accuse myself in racism because of the same quote. But are you merely asking me a question? That's very interesting. ]
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Glad you find it amazing.
What is amazing here is that you see Blum's question ("Can it be imagined that American officials would fire a missile into a residential area of Beverly Hills or the upper east side of Manhattan?" as "racist," while you ask me in the same way ("isn't racism and intolerance the same thing you are doing with this and your other posts?", but you claim that your question is "mere a question." The difference between Blum's question and yours is that Blum first mentions certain facts that inspired him to ask such a question. But I still don't see what inspired you to ask me "isn't racism and intolerance the same thing you are doing with this and your other posts?" [emphasis in bold is mine]
quote:
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The above hardly sounds like a mere question. It is a straightforward accusation.
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My apologize for you thinking I was accusing you of something but I did not mean any harm but was it in an accusational tone? Don’t take things so personally and offensively. If you do, that means you have a lot of insecurity. And you won’t survive very long in a discussion board such as this.
Oh, come on. I have survived far more togher discussions than this here and elsewhere. And I don't have any feelings of insecurity, let alone a lot of insecurity.
Sarah-nasser, your question was in accusational tone and it was personal since you were asking me personally. But my objection to it was not because I was offended. I was not. Not a bit.
When you asked "Your point being???
Correct me if I am wrong but the central theme I have gathered so far is that you’re saying that Americans are racist," that is a question and a request to clarify what I meant. I agree. However, when you asked "But isn't racism and intolerance the same thing you are doing with this and your other posts?" that means you should have some reasons for posing such a question.
Sarah-nasser, you are free to ask questions. But you don't simply ask a person "aren't you expressing racism and intolerance?" You should have some reasons and basis for posing such a question. And my objection to your question is not that you asked, but you didn't explain why you posed such a question in such a tone.
Although, I try to be as far away as possible from racism, may be I did express it somewhere. We are human beings. If I did, show me where. Once I was in rush I wrote in one of my posts "Americans killed millions," but was immediately corrected by Luke. I admitted I had expressed myself wrong. That happens. If you have noticed me expressing racism and intolerance in my other posts (since you implied it with your question), tell me, please, where.
Cheers,
Arslan
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some1onearth
beigetreten: May 23, 2005
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
March 13, 2006 - 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by thomasbradley
There were known terrorists in that house that were killed. If you check a newspaper you would have seen that.
i did Tom,so what? it doesn't make it right,does it?
luke,you always mentioned how 'innocent' those people who invited zawahiri for a dinner. so you assume they're terrorists as well-and deserve to be 'eradicated'-just by doing that?
Originally posted by luke
If someone had Hitler over for dinner - and the allies had a shot at him - would YOU support a strike on the house?
well, atleast i'll make sure HE'S DEAD.
peace
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