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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Striking a Balance
February 16, 2006 - 10:13 AM
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"Can it be imagined that American officials would fire a missile into a house in Paris or London or Ottawa because they suspected that high-ranking al Qaeda members were present there? Even if the US knew of their presence for an absolute fact, and not just speculation as in the Predator cases mentioned above?" - Arslan
No - they would call us the British and say "Arrest these guys" and the British would say "We're on it" and they would go arrest them.
It is just stupid to compare fighting terrorists in North-west Pakistan to doing it in London.
If we knew Zawahiri was in London the English would be embarressed they didn't figure it out first and they would just as hot to nail him as America. And I am sure they would thank us for letting them know.
This is frankly just a rediculous comparison.
North West Pakistan is friendly territory for Zawahiri and his ilk - that is why they are hiding there.
"President Carter gave the Iraqis a green light to launch the war against Iran through Fahd.” - Arslan
yeah, I always knew that evil bastard Jimmy Carter (the Nobel Peace Prize winner) started the Iran/Iraq war - what was I thinking.
Look Arslan - the Iranians just got finished taking our Embassey hostige for over a year - is it really so surprising that Carter suggested that if Saddam started a war we would not interfere.
Not that I EVER imagine Saddam Hussein taking orders from Jimmy Carter of all people.
"Luke, Don't you think that if your anti-terrorist measures actually encourage more terrorism and a much greater resentment in the Muslim world, at least, it's better not to do it? " - Arslan
So you are basically saying that if there are Al Qaeda terrorists plotting catostrophic acts of terrorism against my country we should not do ANYTHING about it for fear of upsetting other radicals.
That is basically your point as I understand it.
That is your arguement - that we should just leave them be.
Well I think Clinton tried that approach - and we got hit with 9/11.
What you are endorsing it TOTALLY self-defeating, the idea that you can't fight terrorism because you'll egg on the terrorists.
Frankly if I thought for a second it was a matter of being "nice" to guys like Zawahiri and Bin Laden - I would be in favor of it - but appeasing these lunatics - or looking soft will only embolden them - and leaving them alone will only give them the room to coordinate further attacks.
The point is that there is a BALANCE that must be struck.
You have to address both the under-lying long term issues of poverty and ignorance - AND protect yourself in the short term from people who are trying to kill you.
And you must aviod civilian casualties as you go because it is both wrong to kill innocent people and counter-productive as you have pointed out.
Do I think the Bush Administraition struck the right balance - in a word - no.
But this idea of simply leaving them alone and hoping they won't attack us again is just - flat - stupid.
"How about Vietnam?"
Didn't kill a million people, which is what we were talking about - although some of the ancillary conflicts such as Pulpot's actions in Cambodia - if you add those in maybe. Also consider that half of those killed were killed by North Vietnam.
But A million Vietnamese were not killed - the figure is a little more than half that - not that I would suggest this is small - nor am I going to defend US policy in Vietnam.
What is amazing is that in the Post war Communist era about the same number died again.
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Arsalan Khan
连接： Feb 16, 2006
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American War on Terrorism
February 16, 2006 - 10:43 AM
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9/11 was balmed on Al-Qaida and its followers. 50 or so leaders of Al-Qaida and a safe guess 2,000 3,000 5,000 ok lets say 10,000 followers.
Does this give any right to USA to carpet bomb and invade Afghanistan? Kill millions of people of Afghanistan, create a nation of hunger and poverty, deprive children of parents and parents of their chidlren ALL IN THE NAME OF WAR AGAINST TERRORISM?
Where is American inteligence? Why couldn't they just find the Al-Qaida Leaders only?
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Saddam Hussain was given weapons to fight Iran for 20 years. Becuase it was in the interest of USA to make two Muslim Countries fight. When he became out of control of USA and started having his own agenda instead of performing USA created scripts, he became the threat to the world. Fine.
Does this give any right to USA to invade a country? To kill thousands and millions of people. And the killings go on?
American Intelligence reported, " HE had Weapons of Mass Destruction" where are those? Where is USA Intelligence? Why are thousands of people dying everyday?
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You know in previous civilizations too there were nations as barbaric as USA. But nations vanish and so as civilzations. Although, before they vanishing they or their generations pay what they have sowed.
American people, the very good and one of the most nice people in the world should know that their own Government/Authorities are fooling none others but their own people only. American Intelligence and its reports are just used as an excuse to do things that individuals sitting at the top want.
Nature has its ways, which is beyond normal understanding. 30 years back no one ever thuoght this quick and this way Russia will fall.
I wish Anerican think tanks had more vision.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 16, 2006 - 11:11 AM
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Goodway - lets be honest and fair about the situation.
"Kill millions of people of Afghanistan, create a nation of hunger and poverty" - Goodway
Millions of people were not killed in Afghanistan - that is rediculous - and if you can find me a credible source that millions died in the Afghanistan conflict I'll eat my hat.
also to say America "created" a nation of poverty is just rediculuos -
it was ALREADY an impoverished nation under the Taliban - then it was both poor AND under the control of the most brutal and barbaric regieme on the planet.
I don't think it is fair or accurate to suggest that Afghanistan BECAME a poor country because of the US invasion.
"Saddam Hussain was given weapons to fight Iran for 20 years. Becuase it was in the interest of USA to make two Muslim Countries fight." - Goodway
He was NOT given weapons for 20 years - more like 5 - and it was not a matter of making them fight - they were already fighting.
this is kind of the problems of the middle-east on others - both the US and the Russians sold weapons sure - but the conflict was begun and perpetuated by the countries involved - and Saddam was fed weapons because it was in America's interests to keep Iran at bay.
"Why are thousands of people dying everyday?" - Goodway
They are not - probalby less than a dozen a day on average in Iraq - not that this excuses anything but you should try to be a bit more accurate.
Millions of people have not died in ANY war since WW2 - except the Iran/Iraq war which apparently killed about 1 million in 20 years.
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 16, 2006 - 11:19 AM
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many American think tanks do have this vision. many of my American friends prefer to call themselves Canadians so that people don't judge them.
So many people around the world are not just crazy to be so against the US Govt( not the citizens). Many of them have lost everything they hold dear in just one day.
What can the US Govt possibly achieve by ruining so many lives ?
Why can't they understand that human lives have as much value any where else in the world as in US? they woke up to the reality of terrorism only when their own city was attacked. and look at the reaction to september 11!
US bombed two countries and is still killing hundreds everyday. All this on the pretext of 9/11 !!!
So why won't those people who have lost their whole world retaliate?
Terrorism has no justification in today's world irrespective of whether it is state sponsored or not.
US which claims to be the upholder of democracy and freedom must be most tolerant.Insead it goes on to prove its might on every calling( esp on the call of the Iranian Prez who BTW ought to be told to restrain himself in public )...
Yes, there is a solution to all this. all the nations should come together and begin anew and take an oath of NON-INTERFERENCE in each others internal matters( a rule which the US has been violating forever).
Al-Qaeda would loose its following if the people see sense . nobody wants war and hatred. those who supprt it have ulterior motives. Even terrorists in Kashmir when they are made to see sense and a better option ,come willingly to reform.
If people keep on musing over what has already happened then we might never have a solution.
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Arsalan Khan
连接： Feb 16, 2006
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American War on Terrorism
February 16, 2006 - 11:40 AM
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Luke
Your reply to my two bits is a classic example of how the general American and western people are blind folded by their Media. Believe me I had not written 50% more what the rest of the world feel. I did not go into the facts of 9/11 and the history of Osama and his vistis to White House during Russian/Afghan War. I didn't even mentioned about the last moment vedio message from Osama in the last American Election that suddenly changed American's opinions. Helping president Bush win the elections.
In my last post you did find errors of facts and corrected me that not miillions but only a few are dying every day in Iraq but you did not even touch on the other subjects that I mentioned.
You did mention about Iran / Iraq war but you forgot to mention the Atomic Bombs on two Japanese Cities and Vietnam War.
I do not want to win an argument with you, just wanted to point out some facts that onlly a friend does to other friend when he thinks his friend is ignoring it.
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Sarah
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Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 17, 2006 - 06:32 AM
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I just posted an article. I didn't write it.
I know you didn’t write it. You copied and pasted it meaning that you were some how compelled to post it in this thread. I assume you agree or like it because you did not state otherwise.
author is American, what are you talking about
So?....
“Whatever the point is, it's made by a white American.
Right and whatever points that person made, you agree with and praise. Praise in a sense that you posted it and is so quick to defend its content.
you see the article problematic
I didn’t say it was problematic but now that you mention it, Yes it is. It is problematic on many different levels for the physical and mental wellness of your own welfare. Physical because I would hate to see you get hurt for supporting some ones ranting and mental because when your mind is set on bigotry, I feel you really can not accomplish much in humanity afterwards.
tell us which part of it like Luke did
Why are you associating me with Luke? And who is “us?”
If you think I have expressed racism or intolerance, show me where I did so.
Sure,
Originally posted by Arslanik
The victims were all black of course. So let's rephrase the question. Can it be imagined that American officials would fire a missile into a residential area of Beverly Hills or the upper east side of Manhattan? [/i] That implies?.......
Doesn’t matter that you did not write it, you posted it and the views are as good as your own unless you state otherwise.
Lumping together all my posts and accusing me of racism and intolerance is not a good way of convincing.
Convincing what? I am not here to compete. I am not trying to make fools out of those who oppose my views. I asked you that question to understand what your exact motives are. If your interests are in world peace and acceptance, you should be following that same conduct. And by you accusing America of being intolerant and racist, you shouldn’t be either because you are making a hypocrite of yourself.
accusation is baseless
Brethren please….I did not accuse you of anything then. I merely asked you a question to find out your motives and I did say correct me if I am wrong.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
连接： May 13, 2004
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Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 17, 2006 - 06:45 AM
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Originally posted by sarah-nasser
Your point being???
Correct me if I am wrong but the central theme I have gathered so far is that you’re saying that Americans are racist. But isn't racism and intolerance the same thing you are doing with this and your other posts?
Americans are racist? Who do you mean by "Americans"? I just posted an article. I didn't write it. And the author is American, what are you talking about? Whatever the point is, it's made by a white American. If you see the article problematic, tell us which part of it like Luke did.
If you think I have expressed racism or intolerance, show me where I did so. Give me specific examples. Lumping together all my posts and accusing me of racism and intolerance is not a good way of convincing. Your accusation is baseless, I think.
Arslan
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Striking a Balance
February 17, 2006 - 07:24 AM
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Originally posted by luke
"Can it be imagined that American officials would fire a missile into a house in Paris or London or Ottawa because they suspected that high-ranking al Qaeda members were present there? Even if the US knew of their presence for an absolute fact, and not just speculation as in the Predator cases mentioned above?" - Arslan
No - they would call us the British and say "Arrest these guys" and the British would say "We're on it" and they would go arrest them.
It is just stupid to compare fighting terrorists in North-west Pakistan to doing it in London.
If we knew Zawahiri was in London the English would be embarressed they didn't figure it out first and they would just as hot to nail him as America. And I am sure they would thank us for letting them know.
This is frankly just a rediculous comparison.
Just a note: you are quoting William Blum, not me. I may also ask that question, but I think it would more accurate if you give credit to the author of the point. Moreover, Blum elaborated more on his question about Paris, London, etc.
You simply don't get the point. Of course, considering the current situation where the British cooperate with the US, they just ask the British. But what if the British did not cooperate? That's the point.
The British do not cooperate with the Russians. Here is an example for you. You don't want to answer this. Russians believe that Zakayev should be captured, which will be both just and prevent possible future terrorist attacks in Russia. No one in Britain or your country would consider it ok, let alone support it, if the Russians hit him inside Britain, especially if the strike killed civilians.
You are still ignoring the case of Luis Posada Carriles. I think I should provide more info on that.
Monday, May 9th, 2005
Terrorist Cuban Exile Luis Posada Carriles Seeking Political Asylum in U.S.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/09/148243
Luis Posada Carriles is a 77-year-old former CIA operative who was trained by the U.S. Army at Fort Benning in Georgia. He has been trying to violently overthrow Fidel Castro's government for four decades. Three weeks ago he entered the United States after years of hiding in Central America and the Caribbean.
Posada has been connected to the 1976 downing of a civilian airliner that killed 73 passengers - the first act of airline terrorism in the Western hemisphere. He has also been linked to a series of 1997 bombings of hotels, restaurants, and discotheques in Havana that killed an Italian tourist; as well as a plot to assassinate Castro five years ago. He has been jailed in Venezuela and Panama. He was last seen in Honduras. Earlier this month he was said to have slipped into Miami. His newly-retained attorney has now requested asylum for him. In response, Venezuela's Supreme Court ruled that the government should seek his extradition from the United States to face terrorism charges.
Additional info on him at the National Security Archive:
LUIS POSADA CARRILES
THE DECLASSIFIED RECORD
CIA and FBI Documents Detail Career in International Terrorism; Connection to U.S.
May 10, 2005
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/
Washington D.C. May 18, 2005 - The National Security Archive today posted additional documents that show that the CIA had concrete advance intelligence, as early as June 1976, on plans by Cuban exile terrorist groups to bomb a Cubana airliner. The Archive also posted another document that shows that the FBI's attache in Caracas had multiple contacts with one of the Venezuelans who placed the bomb on the plane, and provided him with a visa to the U.S. five days before the bombing, despite suspicions that he was engaged in terrorist activities at the direction of Luis Posada Carriles.
Both documents were featured last night on ABC Nightline's program on Luis Posada Carriles, who was detained in Miami yesterday by Homeland Security.
(The info at Archive actually shows how trustful CIA is.)
Now, the question remains the same: Is it ok if the Cuban intelligence hits a United States terrotory where the Cuban intelligence thinks Pasada is?
Can you, please, Luke -- the smart guy -- explain stupid Arslan (who is so stupid that he makes ridiculous statements again and again) if there is any difference between these two cases?
"President Carter gave the Iraqis a green light to launch the war against Iran through Fahd.” - Arslan
yeah, I always knew that evil bastard Jimmy Carter (the Nobel Peace Prize winner) started the Iran/Iraq war - what was I thinking.
Look Arslan - the Iranians just got finished taking our Embassey hostige for over a year - is it really so surprising that Carter suggested that if Saddam started a war we would not interfere.
If it's not surprising to you, why does it make you angry? I said that I didn't imply the war was started by Carter (because I guess that you might get it that way). I just said what the document showed: Carter didn't mind. Whether that was a wise decision or not is a different question. It's up to any reader to make one's own conclusion.
Why don't you respond to Kissinger and Clark?
So you are basically saying that if there are Al Qaeda terrorists plotting catostrophic acts of terrorism against my country we should not do ANYTHING about it for fear of upsetting other radicals.
That is basically your point as I understand it.
That is your arguement - that we should just leave them be.
Well I think Clinton tried that approach - and we got hit with 9/11.
What you are endorsing it TOTALLY self-defeating, the idea that you can't fight terrorism because you'll egg on the terrorists.
Frankly if I thought for a second it was a matter of being "nice" to guys like Zawahiri and Bin Laden - I would be in favor of it - but appeasing these lunatics - or looking soft will only embolden them - and leaving them alone will only give them the room to coordinate further attacks.
The point is that there is a BALANCE that must be struck.
You have to address both the under-lying long term issues of poverty and ignorance - AND protect yourself in the short term from people who are trying to kill you.
And you must aviod civilian casualties as you go because it is both wrong to kill innocent people and counter-productive as you have pointed out.
Do I think the Bush Administraition struck the right balance - in a word - no.
But this idea of simply leaving them alone and hoping they won't attack us again is just - flat - stupid.
Luke, I do not mean just leaving them alone. I am telling that those acts that are counterproductive -- that is, which may create more terrorists that you eliminate -- should be quitted.
Take the invasion of Iraq, which you don't support. But it's also a part of the "War on Terror." You can easily see how counterproductive it was. I posted that report by Al-Jazeera where it was mentioned that the number of terrorist suspects had quadrupled since the fall of 2003. My impression is that -- if not everything -- something has to do with the invasion of Iraq. This is what my stupid mind suggests.
Cheers,
Arslan 
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 17, 2006 - 10:05 AM
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Goodway,
I simply pointed out that you were being innaccurate - I do not know why that would make me blinded by the media.
As for the war with Japan, I said "since WW2" - if you want to go into detail about that war we can - but that is a much longer conversation and feels like a tangent.
I would point out that you and everyone else should be happy we defeated Japan in that war.
Arslan - if you are posting the article to make your point - then obviously you feel the same way the author does.
"But what if the British did not cooperate?" - Arslan
then they would not be Britan, they would be a completely different society -
And if Britian were KNOWINGLY providing shelter to the masterminds of 9/11 - then I guess they would be an enemy - no?
but the reason this is a faulty comparison is because London - regardless of their relationship to us - is an area in which the government has complete control.
It is not a lawless region like mountians on the Pakistani/Afghan boarder.
But basically Arslan this is a totally nonsensical hypothetical - and not one of the better points you have made.
London and mountains on the Afghan/Pakistani boarder are different on so many levels it is just an excersize in absurdity to try to coompare them.
"Carter didn't mind." - Arslan
as I said - they just took our embassey hostage for over a year - of course he didn't mind - why should it make me angry?
As for the Cuban terrorist - I would remind you that we are still at war with the Cuban dictatorship.
The difference I would suggest begins with the simple scale - Zawahiri was behind the single most destructive act of terrorism in history - killed 3000. Posada downed an airplane with 70 people on it.
That said I think he should be arrested - and if the Cubans or Venesualans figured out a way to put a bomb under his car I am sure they would - and then never admit having anything to do with it.
But again - this was a house in a small villiage in a lawless region - and the people who died in were in a house having dinner with some of the most viscious terrorists in the world.
- that is not comperable to action in a metropolitian area like Miami - and if Zawahiri was in a city like Islamabad I am sure the CIA would not have fired a preditor rocket - they would have told the Paks to go get him.
Anyway - I am glad you don't think we should just do nothing.
There are a number of my questions you left unanswered - but for know I'll be happy with that.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 18, 2006 - 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by luke
The most basic questions you skipped - were - "if Hitler was at dinner with non-combatant sympathizers - and it was not on territory where you could surround, or capture him - would you be in favor of a missle strike - even if he was at dinner with people who were not Nazi military - just sympathizers/members of the Nazi party?
Yes.
are people who invite Zawahiri over to dinner really civilians?
As you said, we don't know for sure. But there were reports that civilians were killed. Here I mean by-standers. Then, again, as I mentioned, my concern is not only about one case. My concern is about many cases of assassination attempts that killed a significant number of civilians.
Now, what can you say about Kissinger hoping to see Iran and Iraq killing each other?
And the other question is about Russian hunt on Ahmed Zakayev.
There are more questions that I would like you to answer, but they are from other posts. So, I would not mention them again. But I still would like you to comment on 100,000 pro-Israeli demonstrators booing Wolfowitz for mentioning "Palestinian suffering."
Please note that I am not accusing them in racism, but I just would like to hear a reasonable explanation to it form a Jewish American.
America is a big country - you will find people who say anything and everything - the fact he is a white American doen't mean much to me.
I understand, but the answer about "white American" was to sarah-nasser, not to you. She said the quote accused America of racism, but Blum is American -- a part of America -- and I don't see how can he accuse his own society of racism while he is part of it.
In your case, I just asked you to give credit to the original author of the quote. Also, as I said, American self-criticism is different than non-American criticism of America. I think.
Arslan
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mnopq
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 18, 2006 - 02:22 AM
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Luke, Arslan, others,
I remember having The Economist of March 2005 with special reports on the US and British intelligence services.
I will bring it and will post tomorrow or the day after for the sake of your knowledge!
But Luke, you are going to be disappointed in American intelligence after reading it...
Cheers,
H.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 18, 2006 - 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by luke
Arslan - if you are posting the article to make your point - then obviously you feel the same way the author does.
That may be true. But it's better to give credit to the original author, don't you think so?
There is a difference between me saying these words and William Blum. Blum is an American and if he says so, that means an American citizen is reflecting on his own society. But if I say it myself, it might be seen as an attack from a foreigner. You may disagree with me on that, but I think there is a difference.
but the reason this is a faulty comparison is because London - regardless of their relationship to us - is an area in which the government has complete control.
It is not a lawless region like mountians on the Pakistani/Afghan boarder.
But basically Arslan this is a totally nonsensical hypothetical - and not one of the better points you have made.
London and mountains on the Afghan/Pakistani boarder are different on so many levels it is just an excersize in absurdity to try to coompare them.
Luke, I think you perfectly understand what my real question is. You are again and again trying to divert my attention (perhaps not deliberately) from the main point. Let me put it differently:
Will the US government be willing to sacrifice American or British or Israeli lives as it does Pakistani or Yemeni lives in its attempts to assassinate Al-Qaeda commanders? Just say "yes" or "no."
As for the Cuban terrorist - I would remind you that we are still at war with the Cuban dictatorship.
The difference I would suggest begins with the simple scale - Zawahiri was behind the single most destructive act of terrorism in history - killed 3000. Posada downed an airplane with 70 people on it.
Luke, you made a comprison between Zawahiri and Hitler, I made a comparison between Zawahiri and Posada.
Then again, Posada was responsible not only for shooting down an airplane with 70 passengers, but also organized series of bombs in Cuban restaurants, discos, etc.
Posada's all terrorist casualty may constitute a proportional equivalent of 3,000 American lives if you consider that the Cuban population is considerably less.
You think Zawahiri is as evil as Hitler. I think Posada is as evil as Zawahiri. Yes, Posada hasn't killed 3,000 people. But Zawahiri hasn't killed 6,000,000 Jews and hasn't started the deadliest war in human history either.
Now, you may say that Zawahiri might want to kill that many people. But Posada also might want to kill 3,000 Cubans in order to achieve his goals.
There are a number of my questions you left unanswered - but for know I'll be happy with that.
Please, remind me them. In return, I will also remind you a number of questions of mine you have not answered.
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 18, 2006 - 10:14 AM
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can't wait.
Hey guys - tomorrow will be my last day on the debate for a couple weeks - I am on vacation now.
I just signed a deal about a month and a half ago to Exec Produce a Studio Feature film with a budget of about 35 - 40 Million$
So basically when I am in LA I get very busy - it is a bug job, especially for someone my age (I do not know anyone else my age in this position) - and I don't intend to mess it up.
But I will be back in Florida in a few weeks and I'll get back to these discuassions which I quite enjoy.
I can't tell you about the project yet because it would violate my contract - but when the announcement is made officially in the press I'll provide some links and fill you in.
cheers!
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 18, 2006 - 12:07 PM
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quote:
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I just posted an article. I didn't write it.
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I know you didn’t write it. You copied and pasted it meaning that you were some how compelled to post it in this thread. I assume you agree or like it because you did not state otherwise. ------- quote by sarah-nasser
I copied and pasted because I wanted to show that here is an American citizen -- also a historian who has studied American foreign policy in details and has written a number of books on that -- is asking these questions. I would like to see how other Americans would answer that. Luke is answering it, but you seem to be telling me not to ask. But I want to know, so I ask.
You don't think that those people who bombed a Pakistani village or a building with only black people are racist? Okey. Fine. But then give us your explanation. What was the reason that some police officials decided to sacrifice the lives of innocent black people and some CIA officials decided to sacrifice the lives of innocent Pakistani people.
But instead of answering the question, you seem to be wanting me not to ask questions, or not to post articles that ask such questions.
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author is American, what are you talking about
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So?....
You asked whether I considered Americans racist? I am asking you: who are Americans?
Ok, I will answer my question myself: Americans are every single person who is a citizen of the United States of America.
Nobody implied that Americans are racist; neither I nor William Blum. There are racists in America but that doesn't make ALL Americans are racist.
The reason why I am telling you that the author is an American is that here you have at least one American -- of course there are millions of Americans -- who think differently than the policy-makers in Washington or at Langley or at FBI headquarters. And there are different people inside White House, CIA, and FBI, or Police Departments.
The question William Blum asked in his posts is NOT about ALL Americans. The question is about those police officials who blew up a building with black people and about those CIA officials who blew up several people in a Pakistani village.
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“Whatever the point is, it's made by a white American.
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Right and whatever points that person made, you agree with and praise. Praise in a sense that you posted it and is so quick to defend its content.
I may, but not necessarily. I already told Luke. There is a difference between me asking these questions and an American citizen asking these questions. Blum is reflecting on his own society.
When did I praise his his post? I wrote there: Blums comment on Predator attack. That's the title of the discussion thread now. By the way, I didn't change the title of the discussion. So, it's done by a moderator. So, now, will you claim that moderator is also praising Blum???
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you see the article problematic
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I didn’t say it was problematic but now that you mention it, Yes it is. It is problematic on many different levels for the physical and mental wellness of your own welfare. Physical because I would hate to see you get hurt for supporting some ones ranting and mental because when your mind is set on bigotry, I feel you really can not accomplish much in humanity afterwards.
Honestly, I didn't understand the above. Who is supporting someone's ranting? Whose mind is set on bigotry?
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tell us which part of it like Luke did
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Why are you associating me with Luke?
I am not associating you with Luke. What I am saying is that Luke is answering my questions and points. But what you are saying is (a) am I saying that Americans are racist? and (b) am I not racist myself? I didn't say Americans are racist. And I am not racist myself either.
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If you think I have expressed racism or intolerance, show me where I did so.
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Sure,
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Originally posted by Arslanik
The victims were all black of course. So let's rephrase the question. Can it be imagined that American officials would fire a missile into a residential area of Beverly Hills or the upper east side of Manhattan? [/i]
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That implies?.......
Doesn’t matter that you did not write it, you posted it and the views are as good as your own unless you state otherwise.
I don't see anything racist here. Blum is simply referring to facts. And the facts show that in a number of cases American policy-makers have sacrificed the lives of people who may fall under the category of "collateral damage": blacks in 1980s and Pakistani villagers today. Reflecting on these facts, Blum is asking a relevant question: Will the US policy-makers be willing to sacrifice the lives of people who DO NOT fall under the category of "collateral damage": whites, Britons, French, etc. for the same cause for which they sacrifice the lives of blacks and Pakistani villagers.
What you are suggesting is that Blum -- and I, for that matter -- should not refer to or reflect on facts because it implies that some American officials are racist.
Again, if you think otherwise, disprove the implications.
And who is “us?”
Ok, I am talking about me. Show me.
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Lumping together all my posts and accusing me of racism and intolerance is not a good way of convincing.
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Convincing what? I am not here to compete. I am not trying to make fools out of those who oppose my views. I asked you that question to understand what your exact motives are.
My motives are clear. I am telling everyone here that it's not ok to blow up an area with the knowledge that it will kill innocent people. I agree that there may be cases when such acts may be justified. But the cases that I mentioned -- both Pakistani village where 18 civilians were killed and other cases when significant number of by-standers have been killed (according to LA Times report) -- are not those that may be justified.
If your interests are in world peace and acceptance, you should be following that same conduct.
That's exactly my conduct. I am telling: don't blow up people.
And by you accusing America of being intolerant and racist, you shouldn’t be either because you are making a hypocrite of yourself.
I never accused America of being racist or intolerant. America is not one person to accuse it of either racism or intolerance. There are almost 300,000,000 people there.
Again when did I show racism and intolerance? You also said "your other posts." Where in my other posts I showed racism and intolerance?
Have I ever attacked a race? Have I ever accused a particular race of something?
Have I been intolerant of somebody's religion? Or somebody's nation? Or somebody's culture?
What do you want me to be tolerance of, sarah-nasser? Do you want me to be tolerant of CIA officials who have conducted at least 19 operations in which untold number of innocent people -- a significant number, according to LA Times report -- alongside 4 Al-Qaeda senior officials were killed?
Or do you want me to be tolerant of seeing my Muslim brethren being wrongly tortured at Guantanamo (reminder: according to LA Times Editorial that I posted, many of people there have been wrongly captured)?
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accusation is baseless
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Brethren please….I did not accuse you of anything then. I merely asked you a question to find out your motives and I did say correct me if I am wrong.
This is amazing. When I quote Blum who said "The victims were all black of course. So let's rephrase the question. Can it be imagined that American officials would fire a missile into a residential area of Beverly Hills or the upper east side of Manhattan?," you say that I am accusing America of racism. You also accuse myself in racism because of the same quote. But are you merely asking me a question? That's very interesting.
Yes, you said: "Correct me if I am wrong." But you also asked the following:
"But isn't racism and intolerance the same thing you are doing with this and your other posts?"
The above hardly sounds like a mere question. It is a straightforward accusation.
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Blum's comment on Predator attack
February 18, 2006 - 12:53 PM
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Arslan - America is a big country - you will find people who say anything and everything - the fact he is a white American doen't mean much to me.
"Will the US government be willing to sacrifice American or British or Israeli lives as it does Pakistani or Yemeni lives in its attempts to assassinate Al-Qaeda commanders? Just say "yes" or "no." - Arslan
YES - or have we not sacrificed American lives in this war over the last 5 years - we have sacrificed thousands of them actually.
So I would say with certainty that the Americans, British, and Israelis all put their people on the line to protect those back home.
I know that is not exactly how you wanted it so let me also put it this way.
If some American citizens invited Zawahiri over to dinner in lets say Maine - I am certain the Government would converge on the house and use any and all neccissary force - And the people who invited him to dinner would be guilty of providing material support to terrorists.
If the people who had Zawahiri in their house were killed in the effort to get the terrorist - then I assure you most Americans wouldn't care a lick.
Would they fire a missle - no - but it would not be neccissary, because the situation would be different - if he was in the US its our country and we could bring all kinds of assets to bear.
In Northwest Pakistan is lawless and we can hardly surround the place - or enguage in a manhunt were he to escape.
The most basic questions you skipped - were - "if Hitler was at dinner with non-combatant sympathizers - and it was not on territory where you could surround, or capture him - would you be in favor of a missle strike - even if he was at dinner with people who were not Nazi military - just sympathizers/members of the Nazi party?
the other was - are people who invite Zawahiri over to dinner really civilians?
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