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Shennel
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Christmas Under Attack?
December 16, 2005 - 04:01 AM
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For the past few weeks I've been following this story on FOX News about how Christmas is under attack in America. They keep giving examples of what they say are attacks directed specifically at Christmas. They are especially ticked at Walmart because they banned employees from using "Merry Christmas" at their stores and replaced it with "Happy Holidays" instead. According to walmart, they did that because a customer said that she was insulted when an employee wished her "Merry Christmas".
What do you guys think? Do you believe that christmas is under attack? Would anyone of you consider some one wishing you a merry christmas an insult? I know that not everyone celebrates christmas but is it really insulting to wish some one a merry Christmas?
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stevez
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 18, 2005 - 05:07 AM
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In America,Christmas isn't just a religious holiday but also a federal one.
To not allow someone to say Merry Christmas is taking away their freedom of speech which is one of the things America is built on.
There are groups of atheists and special interest groups that want to get rid of all religious sayings in American life.Christmas is under attack but not only in America but in other countries as well.Go to Bill O reillys web site for a full report on it.
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Beth
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 18, 2005 - 05:33 AM
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I believe some may consider it an insult because they do not want to be a part of the world that celebrates Christmas and would rather be seen as orginal or of another culture that does not celebrate the same holidays.
Many people prefer 'Happy Holidays' because it brings cheer which is not exclusive. When someone says 'Merry Christmas' to me, I see it as a limited statement which contributes to the lack of celebrating diversity in the US. Christmas here is no longer solely about the religious holiday and many people have taken it out as a day of celebration with family rather than a day of celebration of Jesus Christ. Still, it's roots are solid in Christianity and Christmas is a symbol of that, not generally considering an encompassing symbol of the holiday spirit.
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stevez
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 18, 2005 - 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by eakboo
I believe some may consider it an insult because they do not want to be a part of the world that celebrates Christmas and would rather be seen as orginal or of another culture that does not celebrate the same holidays.
Many people prefer 'Happy Holidays' because it brings cheer which is not exclusive. When someone says 'Merry Christmas' to me, I see it as a limited statement which contributes to the lack of celebrating diversity in the US. Christmas here is no longer solely about the religious holiday and many people have taken it out as a day of celebration with family rather than a day of celebration of Jesus Christ. Still, it's roots are solid in Christianity and Christmas is a symbol of that, not generally considering an encompassing symbol of the holiday spirit.
Most people I know say Merry Christmas,but we may run in differant circles.
How can saying Merry Christmas be limited when 84% of the US in Christian.
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Beth
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 19, 2005 - 01:14 AM
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It's not that these people think people are dilberately hurting them. It's that they are excluding them. Just because there are more females in the world, we don't go around calling everyone female. Many people would rather be recognized for their differences.
It is excluding those of another culture. It is not allowing those of other cultures to be represented.
I'm not saying people who say 'Merry Christmas' are bad people, I'm saying that it can make people feel insulted as the news may say. I'm just trying to explain a different side. That 'Merry Christmas' may not be the best statement to use when we could easily say 'Happy Holidays' or 'have a great day', etc. There are many options, even asking those if what holiday(s) they celebrate. It could be a good way to get to know people.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 19, 2005 - 02:15 AM
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"To not allow someone to say Merry Christmas is taking away their freedom of speech" - Steve
greeters are hired to say a certain greeting - it is their job to say what the employers hired them to say to costumers.
so there is NO free speech issue - they are not allowed to say "f**k off" either - is that a violation of free speech - or simply professionalism.
You have NO CASE here - I am a filmmaker - I higher actors to say lines. If they do not say those lines I fire them - am I violating their free speech to expect them to say their lines?
They still have the "Right" to say whatever they want - they have the right to tell costumers to "f**k off" if they want - they will just get fired - but not arrested.
but to the larger issue - Foxnews is just making mountains out of mole hills - this is a nonissue that they are throwing to their Christian conservative base.
considering all the power the Christian conservatives weild in this country and in this government it is plainy absurd that they are somehow threatened in their ability to freely excersize their faith.
if Wallmart has made the bussiness decision that saying "happy holidays" is more inclusive to a greater amount of costumers - then this is their decsion - they are not "attacking" anything.
leave it to the Christain conservatives to feel threatened at every turn - and think they are always "under attack" in all things.
when they are the ones usually doing the attacking.
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stevez
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 19, 2005 - 02:51 AM
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Originally posted by luke
"To not allow someone to say Merry Christmas is taking away their freedom of speech" - Steve
greeters are hired to say a certain greeting - it is their job to say what the employers hired them to say to costumers.
so there is NO free speech issue - they are not allowed to say "f**k off" either - is that a violation of free speech - or simply professionalism.
You have NO CASE here - I am a filmmaker - I higher actors to say lines. If they do not say those lines I fire them - am I violating their free speech to expect them to say their lines?
They still have the "Right" to say whatever they want - they have the right to tell costumers to "f**k off" if they want - they will just get fired - but not arrested.
but to the larger issue - Foxnews is just making mountains out of mole hills - this is a nonissue that they are throwing to their Christian conservative base.
considering all the power the Christian conservatives weild in this country and in this government it is plainy absurd that they are somehow threatened in their ability to freely excersize their faith.
if Wallmart has made the bussiness decision that saying "happy holidays" is more inclusive to a greater amount of costumers - then this is their decsion - they are not "attacking" anything.
leave it to the Christain conservatives to feel threatened at every turn - and think they are always "under attack" in all things.
when they are the ones usually doing the attacking.
Luke in this country you are allowed to say as you wish.Thus freedom of speech.If I am working in a store and I say Merry Christmas and I get fired,I'm getting a lawyer.They are infringing on freedom of speech.They aren't hired to say a line they are hired to sell something.But they also have the right to not take the job if they offended by that.
Now lets get to the point,schools are not allowed to show the manger and jesus,but a menhora(sp)(I have absolutly nothing against Hanakua)is allowed.Is that right.In public places it is a holiday tree,it is actually a christmas tree.In my town they have a holiday tree and a menhora.They used to have the manger and jesus but they didn't want to offend anyone.This offends me when things are called something for a hundred years and all of a sudden people are offended and they aren't allowed to call it that or say it.Luke I read somewhere that you are jewish so this is almost a non issue to you.But let them take away one right and more will follow.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 19, 2005 - 04:02 AM
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If you are HIRED specifically to say a certain thing to customers then it is your JOB to say that thing.
it is not a free speech issue. If Wallmart wanted their employees to greet costumers by saying "Wallmart is the most wonderful place on earth" - then that is what they sould say.
and if you say something else - and they fire you - then go ahead and waste money on a lawyer - you have no case. I am from a long line of lawyers.
Now if we are talking about people without anything relevant in their job description - like perhaps a cashier, or a clerk - where there is nbothing in the contract they signed obligating them to say whatever the line is - then yes you could sue.
But if you are highered as a GREETER - and the WHOLE function of your employment is to deliver a certain greeting to costumers - then it certainly IS in your job description - it IS in your contract - and I CAN fire you if you do not deliver the LINE that I HIRED you to deliver.
"They aren't hired to say a line they are hired to sell something." - Steve
WRONG - greeters are hired specifically to say a greeting - they don't sell anything - they are not sales reps and it is not in their job description.
"Now lets get to the point,schools are not allowed to show the manger and jesus,but a menhora(sp)(I have absolutly nothing against Hanakua)is allowed." - Steve
I have NEVER seen a school that allowed one kind of religious representation and not the other - it is always either both or neither.
I would of course be opposed to one gaining any kind of preference ove the other.
frankly I do not think Public Schools are the place for any kind of religious symbols - so why not religate them all to Sunday school/Hebrew School as the Constitution dictates and end the issue entirely?
To me this is all semanticle - they have Christmas tree but call it by another name - the whole thing seems kind of stupid - and frankly you are going to call it a Christmas tree regardless right - so what is the big deal?
They have both a Christmas tree and a Manorah so...
But let me let you in on a little secret - Hanukah is not a very important Jewish Holiday - at all. its importance has been inflated by retailers. Yom Kippur, Passover, Rosh Hashana - these a big holidays - Hanukah by Jewish standards is a very "new" holiday represents the destruction of the Second Temple.
Also understand and half my family are very religious Christians - from the South no less - so I am sensitive to both sides of the issue.
on the 25th I will be at my Grandparents place in Florida celebrating Christmas with the rest of the Goyam.
I think you guys would find less resistance toward expressions of Christianity if there was not a feeling that Christian Conservatives were trying to take over the country and make the rules for everyone else.
Stem Cell research comes to mind. They have really forced themselves into the public arena and it is creating a reaction.
also the fact that their candidates (like Delay) are so far from ethical behavior I think hurts their cause.
I still remember when the Christian Coalition in Florida took over the school baord (where I grad. High school) and started "Creationism" classes in the public schools. Fortunatly the ACLU stoped them.
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stevez
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 19, 2005 - 04:44 AM
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You know what luke in 7 days it won't matter any more.
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Shennel
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 19, 2005 - 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by eakboo
I believe some may consider it an insult because they do not want to be a part of the world that celebrates Christmas and would rather be seen as orginal or of another culture that does not celebrate the same holidays.
How does wishing some one a Merry Christmas make you less original? How does that take away your culture? Why not just tell the person that you don't celebrate christmas? After all the person was wishing you well not insulting you. I'm sure persons do not go around deliberately wishing non christians a merry christmas.
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Shennel
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Re: Christmas Under Attack?
December 21, 2005 - 06:21 AM
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Originally posted by luke
I think you guys would find less resistance toward expressions of Christianity if there was not a feeling that Christian Conservatives were trying to take over the country and make the rules for everyone else.
How did we get from "Do you think that saying merry christmas is an insult" to Christians trying to take over the country???
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