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Ed Jonas
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The UN
December 13, 2005 - 10:36 AM
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Well to repeat
I think there is benefit in democratic diversity
You know maybe its good that Eastern Democracy
isn't the same as Western Democracy.
Democracies generally don't war.
And as far as the United Nations then
Maybe it would be more helpful to be
the "United Democracies of Earth" as a forum
for international cooperation and whatever.
Tuesday 13 DEC. 2005
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Shancy
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UN- Oil for Food
December 19, 2005 - 01:33 AM
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In response to SteveZ...
it is totally ridiculous to use just one incidence at the United Nations to totally discredit the entire UN System. The Oil for Food Scandal benefited more American businessmen than any UN official.
It does point out, however, that the United Nations is in need of reform- just like any large multi-lateral decision making organization... changes need to be made over time so it can adapt to the world. Hopefully the future Sec. General will head in this direction of change and make decisions that benefit and support all of the member nations.
Perhaps the World Bank and the IMF will also consider making reforms to how they go about making decisions that are going to change the lives of millions of people.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The UN
December 19, 2005 - 02:35 AM
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stevez - I think this is where I remind you of all the scandles your REPUBLICANS are having right now - Tom Delay, CIA leaks, illegal wire taps - it never ends.
so "den of corruption" I think better describes the Republicans right now.
but I will say this - the War in Iraq represents in large measure a failure of the UN - there was a PROBLEM there, Saddam was a problem, the suffering of his poeple was a problem - and the UN did nothing about it, the conflict could have been avoided.
The Sudan is another example of where they are simply NOT PROACTIVE ENOUGH.
and then there is the issue of corruption - part of the reason people were starving under the Oil for Food program is all the scamming and bribery and back door dealings that all happened on the UN's watch and often involved their employees.
so I think the UN is clearly in need of reform - perhaps even new leadership. We should all be confident in the UN - PARTICULARLY where corruption is concerned.
and it must become a more proactive organization - or it will become a glorified Humanitarian Aid group.
"The Oil for Food Scandal benefited more American businessmen than any UN official." - Shannon
This is just factually incorrect - there is only ONE American bussinessman currently under investigation - most of those who stand accused of bribery in this affair are French, German, and Russian.
cheers!
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stevez
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Re: The UN
December 19, 2005 - 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by swanny
Well to repeat
I think there is benefit in democratic diversity
You know maybe its good that Eastern Democracy
isn't the same as Western Democracy.
Democracies generally don't war.
And as far as the United Nations then
Maybe it would be more helpful to be
the "United Democracies of Earth" as a forum
for international cooperation and whatever.
Tuesday 13 DEC. 2005
The UN is a joke.A den of corruption.Oil for food scandel is just one that comes to mind.
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Abdul Wadood Jamal
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Re: The UN
December 19, 2005 - 12:48 PM
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Positive mind utter positive words, I have been working for UN for many years; I know the services of UN for needy and misery humanity. Its nonsensness to use such words for the huge system of UN.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The UN
December 21, 2005 - 01:22 AM
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"was without scandel?His was one of the most scadelous." - Steve
he was without a scandle I actually cared about or effected me as a citizen.
I frankly could not care less if he was getting a little on the side from an intern - it is unprofessional sure - and I think he deserved a little flack for it - but shutting down congress? are you kidding - this does not rise to that level of importance.
This is a personal marital issue.
Bush and the Republicans right now are enguaging in wrongdoing of an entirely different stripe.
circumventing the law to put wire taps on American citizens - without any judicial oversight.
hyping intelligence to go to war.
Outing CIA agents in a blatent case of political payback.
Money laundering (Delay)
When Abrahmof turns witness (which the word is he will do) watch how WIDESPREAD the corruption will prove to be - he is going bring down a number of congressmen.
I might also mention the Congressmen who recently had to resign because he took millions on bribes from defense contractors.
These to me are real issue - issues that go to the heart of our Domocracy, Civil Liberties - and issues of War and Peace.
Clinton got a Blow Job and had a few shady Real Estate deals - who cares?
This had zero effect on the American people. It wasn't like he was taking us to WAR on faulty intelligence.
It wasn't like he was spying on the American people without judicial oversight.
It wasn't like he was outing covert agencies DURING wartime.
"Didn't they drop some of Delays charges." - Steve
they dropped one of them - before charging him with other criminal acts.
"Is Libiya still on the human rights committee. The UN has out lived it's usefullness " - Steve
don't know if they or Syria is still on that committee but agree it is rediculous to have dictators who run police states on that committee.
As for outliving its usefullness - don't be silly - never - there will always be good cause for such an international forum - basically one place where everyone can get together and pool their efforts.
there is also the legitimacy of international resolutions.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The UN
December 21, 2005 - 01:33 AM
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"there has been talk occasionally about adding at least one new vetoing member; either Germany or Japan." - Con
ummmm.... how do I put this - I would be completely uncomfortable putting Germany as a Veto power on the council.
forget the fact that Europe already HAS 2 seats on the council and it is rediculous if HALF the council is from Europe - why should Europe get 3 votes when the US is basically the same size both in population and economy - why should they have 3 times the votes?
and Considering India is almost 1 Billion people and come from a region which is under represented instead of over represented.
There is also the simple fact that Germany has started the two biggest conflict in modern history - WW1 & WW2 as well as committing Genocide.
I have friends who are German, but I have to say - Germany put my Ancestors into Concentraition camps and you want to give them veto power on the security council...
It is basically the same thing with Japan - although I have less of an objection.
in the end I cannot see any reason why EITHER of these countries should be on the council before India and perhaps Brazil.
This is a GLOBAL organization - it does not belong to Europe.
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Laura Steiner
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Re: The UN
December 21, 2005 - 12:10 PM
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I'm going to take the opportunity to steer this discussion away from American politics back to the UN. I believe it's a magnificent organization, whose umbrella organizations do incredible things for humanity at large. Granted the Oil-for-food scandal puts a black mark on it, but we should give the organziation a shot at cleaning itself up.
Having said all that, it could do with a little bit of reform. Starting with the Security Council- there has been talk occasionally about adding at least one new vetoing member; either Germany or Japan. I wouldn't see the problem with Germany joining group- being one of the founding members of the European Union, and having one of its strongest economies surely out weighs being on the wrong side of both world-wars.
Also, what about backing up some of those resolutions with some kind of army to enforce them?
Just some idle thoughts on reform of the UN
-concernedcdn
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stevez
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Re: The UN
December 22, 2005 - 03:34 AM
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Originally posted by theundertaker
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stevez
[B]I guess when you speak the truth they delete your posts.Whats the matter I may have caused a heated discussion.
It's because TIG need some intelligent post.Not someone who don't know anything.[/B][/QUOTE]
And you think you are smart because of why?I didn't seem to catch what schools you went to.I guess you went to some world renowned universities to make you the intelligent person that you are.
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James Dagger
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Re: The UN
December 22, 2005 - 08:59 AM
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If we can kindly get back to the issue of the United Nations and stray from what Clinton does behind closed doors.
Simple facts: The United Nations has been a tool of aggressive american foreign since its creation. Look at the "policing action" in Korea, i wonder were all the other police countries went? And for the love of god dont get me started on anti-personnel landmines
One HUGE problem is the egotisical, arrogant and self rightious stance the U.S. takes towards the U.N. believing itself to answerable to no one and above reproach, U.S. soliders for one are recognised as a seperate command structure in U.N. foreign missions, instead of being clothed in the traditional blue cap of the UN peace keeper.
This was a problem in Korea and in Somali.
I believe that there should be more talk about widening the sercurity council, its time to play nice in the sandbox with the other children. Do you think the Japanese believe that its fair that the United states atomically bombed civilians and yet still have the ability to veto? What kind of double standard are you living by? and then there is the age old wisdom - the danger of so much power in so few hands.
People its time to get serious about the United nations and international politics, how many more enemies can we find? How many more wars can we fight? Should we fight before we find a proper and effective solution
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Injy
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Re: The UN
December 22, 2005 - 11:29 AM
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Speaking of the UN's role, I have just read an interview for Boutrous Ghaly in a magazine, and he was talking about the UN reform, him being among the pioneers calling for it, given its inactive role under the pressure of the clout of big powers. Anyway, when asked about whether he thinks that another organization could take over the UN role, he answeres in the affirmitive, citing the example of the League of Nations, whose role fit after First World War, but failed to prevent a second one, then came the emergence of UN.
Do you think of any alternative of the UN among present organizations, in case of failure of refrom within it? I personally do not know.
I go for Luke's argument that Europe is represented enough, while India for example is under represented, so why not India among the permanent members for more Asia representation. What about Africa, the troubled continent of the world, do you think of any African countries up to the competition?
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Hugh Switzer
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Re: The UN
December 22, 2005 - 12:11 PM
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Steve, it's because you're suspended from TIG.
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Abdel Antonio
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Re: The UN
December 22, 2005 - 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by stevez
I guess when you speak the truth they delete your posts.Whats the matter I may have caused a heated discussion.
It's because TIG need some intelligent post.Not someone who don't know anything.
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Ed Jonas
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UN Complexity
December 22, 2005 - 12:37 PM
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The UNs Mandate is a very daunting mission.
The Complexity involved in trying to coordinate
and "please" so many participants makes its job
somewhat impossible but most worthy in nature.
Most countries , parties, and polititions only have the onerus
task of mostly pleasing one nation and all their
various constitutents, multiply this by 200 or so
and you can see the complexity and variables that
the UN has to work around and with.
The idea of a United Democracies of Earth is an perhaps
proposals to help organize its efforts around a central
democratic principle.
even though as they say democracy is a bad system too but
the best one humanity has going at the moment.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The UN
December 23, 2005 - 01:21 AM
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more to the point - what is wrong with the police action taken in Korea.
North Korea was a facist dictatorship on the March - the UN did exactly the right thing.
Not only that if the UN was just tool of the UN then Communist Russia and China would not have been on the Security Council throughout the entire Cold War - give me a break.
some people will say anything against the US they can think of.
As for Africa - I think if the African Union could pick a representative this might work - but I cannot think of a single African country that by itself would warrent a Veto - the most advanced/largest countries are South Africa and Egypt -
is either of these countries really before India? India is the largest democracy in the world - and an emerging economic power house - so I think they surely shoulod be the next on the council - they also represent ALOT of people.
"I think that if the UN had some type of armed force (aside from peacekeepers), to back up the might of its resolutions then it could be a much more effective organization. -concernedcdn "
Then it would be an entirely different kind of organization - if its leader commanded independant armed forces then it would be basically a World Government - which I do not think we are ready for.
Also if those armed forces are less powerful then indivdual countries - what is the point?
I think it simply needs to be more assertive - more proactive. It should not merely pass resolutions but enforce them - for this it can still fall back on its member states.
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