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stevez
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Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 20, 2005 - 02:35 AM
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Saad Iqbal
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Dear...Who said that?
November 20, 2005 - 02:55 AM
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Who the idiot thinks that muslims hate US?
How can u say that by observing only limited people?
Keep it in mind that islam and muslims r not evrything that the extrremists do.
Extremism is forbidden in Islam... and so is the useless killing of the innocents be it muslim or any one.
Let me tell u a fact. As u know that drugs are forbidden in Islam. So is its prod. and cultivation.
The opium plants were widely cultivated across the afghanistan during the usama's regime... So how can u expect him other things when he openly does sins.
Remember killing of the innocents be it muslim or any one is strictly forbidden in islam.
So dont think all muslims usama, muslims r what the world media does never ever clearly portray.... muslims r peace loving.
Salaam(Peace)
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stevez
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 20, 2005 - 03:01 AM
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Azira Aziz
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 23, 2005 - 11:39 AM
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*sigh* I understand that America, being the large country it is, has many concerns within its shores that it usually doesn't cover world issues and the folks tend to outlook the world section. Still, it would be nice if you'd surf around a little before making generalizations.
No, we don't hate America. I happen to be one of those teens saturated in American pop culture, mooning over Jude Law, luvin' Pizza Hut, screaming myself hoarse over the likes of Backstreet Boys (I was 9, be nice), Evernescence, etc.
Guess what, I'm not alone.
It's what America does politically, militarily, etc without respect and well, common sense that buggers us to bits, and most of its people's ignorance about Islam. Saadiqbal's summarized it simple and short.
Anyways, if you want to call us moderate Muslims followers of Osama, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, etc...why on Earth are the 57 Islamic governments of the world condemn (minus one or two weirdos we just don't know what to do with) all extremists and all forms of extremism?
*shudders* Still can't believe those sickos slaughtered men like halal cows.
Stevens, you're making statements from what you are being told to believe, and I suggest you challenge what they tell you. Just read up a little more, even if a bit more on the 'why's' for now, you're on the right track, I think.
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stevez
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 24, 2005 - 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by ChibiMelody
*sigh* I understand that America, being the large country it is, has many concerns within its shores that it usually doesn't cover world issues and the folks tend to outlook the world section. Still, it would be nice if you'd surf around a little before making generalizations.
No, we don't hate America. I happen to be one of those teens saturated in American pop culture, mooning over Jude Law, luvin' Pizza Hut, screaming myself hoarse over the likes of Backstreet Boys (I was 9, be nice), Evernescence, etc.
Guess what, I'm not alone.
It's what America does politically, militarily, etc without respect and well, common sense that buggers us to bits, and most of its people's ignorance about Islam. Saadiqbal's summarized it simple and short.
Anyways, if you want to call us moderate Muslims followers of Osama, Al-Qaeda, Hamas, etc...why on Earth are the 57 Islamic governments of the world condemn (minus one or two weirdos we just don't know what to do with) all extremists and all forms of extremism?
*shudders* Still can't believe those sickos slaughtered men like halal cows.
Stevens, you're making statements from what you are being told to believe, and I suggest you challenge what they tell you. Just read up a little more, even if a bit more on the 'why's' for now, you're on the right track, I think.
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Jon Sato
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 25, 2005 - 12:29 PM
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This is one of those topics that usually becomes quite belligerent and sometimes completely disrespectful.
Please browse the recent discussions to make sure you really have something new to add. Otherwise keep commments respectful, do NOT get personal, and try not to fall into the "my culture is better than yours" argument.
Moderator
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 29, 2005 - 01:58 AM
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"None? I can name you plenty." - Chibi
some play lip service - some even mean it - but even this week middle-eastern governments could not reach a definition of terrosim with European leaders because they kept wanting to qualify the definitions with "if" and "buts"
they still have a long way to go.
"Dude, the Klu Klux Klan killed black men in the US in the name of Jesus, clad in white garbs decorated in crosses." - Chibi
absolutely correct - no question about it - and they KKK undersood about as much about Jesus as Al Qaeda understands about Muhammed.
But to quote a recent example of the Imam of the largest Mosque in Ohio - who has been arrested for supporting terrorism.
He would get up in front of his congregation - which numbered in the thousands - and say Jews were the "sons of monkeys and pigs" - and the congregation just sat there and encouraged him.
I could not IMAGINE our rabbi saying something like this about Muslims - and if he did we would run him out of the temple on a rail.
The congregation who sat complicit while such hate was being preached in their mosque should be ashamed of themselves.
"CNN isn't world news, and how it really happened. CNN is what the American government wants their people to think about certain issues." - Chibi
you really don't understand anything about our country do you? CNN has often lambasted the President, as has the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, 60 minuets, Dateline NBC and any other number of mainstream American media sources.
Put simply you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. They were all a little spinelss in the lead up to the war - but by and large these are left leaning media sources despised by the Bush Administraition.
"I may live in a predominantly Muslim nation, but hey, at least the government lets us read, watch, and listen to what we will" - Chibi
congradulations - we invesnted Freedom of the Press, and we are one of the only countries who literally have it garunteed and enshrined in the Bill of Rights.
The American Press has brought Presidents to their knees - just ask Nixon.
What nonesense - I take it you have never watched John Stewart or Bill Mahr.
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Azira Aziz
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 29, 2005 - 02:10 AM
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They can try, they can manipulate, they can control what information comes from THEIR OFFICES. The government can certainly control the information THEY PROVIDE the media. They can leak certain bites of info at opportune times to spin storied they way they want.
Yup.
But they have NO RIGHTS to tell the media what it can and can't say.
That's like saying that these folks don't have families, dark secrets or anything that could be subtly taken care of. I'm not saying American journalists are easily swayed, but you get the idea.
They have tried before - and every time they do the case goes before the Supreme Court - and every time the First Amendment is upheld.
I'm sure it's few and far in between plus those who did it are clumsy and dumb enough to get caught.
This is not to say that there is no callusion between the large corporations that own media outlets and the government -
but good journalists rarely stay in such outfits.
There's ALWAYS collisions between corps and govts for good reasons, that also goes without saying.
And journalism is by and large left leaning in America, part of the reason Bush is at 36% in the polls is the constant barrage from the press.
He still won the recent election. We'resorryeveryone isn't enough.
"Those 'ifs' and 'buts' may frustrate the whole world, but it's the little things that matters, y'know" - Chibi
totally disagree - any equivocation or lack of moral clarity on the issue will be capitalized on by terrorists - it must be simple and clear. Confusion lends itself to violence and stryfe.
Yo, moral clarity? For all we know they are arguing about whether targeted assasination should be put after selective or opportunity. It is rather silly, and I did say that those hours are better placed towards avoiding the whole damn thing to begin with, but hell.
ANYONE who straps a bomb to themselves, or drives a car full of explosives against a civilian target for purely political gain - is a TERRORIST not a FREEDOM FIGHTER.
This is obvious, Luke. Thus my above comment.
As for the English etc.
America was THE FIRST country to have Freedom of Press GARUNTEED in the CONSTITUTION.
It doesn't mean they were the first to ever have such an idea or make any such suggestion - it means they were the first to make it LAW.
I'll take your word for it, though isn't the point about whether we should have it around more rather than who the heck has it first, and its true enforcement? I actually believe that certain restrictions that opposed some of your sentiments is actually useful. I have a lot to say about Malaysian press's freedom, but when you come right to it, it kept 30 years of peace. So applied restrictions on subjective situations does work after all.
I wonder.
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Saladin
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 29, 2005 - 03:02 AM
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Stevez,
let me share with you the lyrics of this song by Sami Yusuf (An international Islamic singer)
"Muhammad (pbuh)
Dedicated to the innocent children of Beslan
Every day I see the same headlines
Crimes committed in the name of the divine
People committing atrocities in his name
They murder and kidnap with no shame
But did he teach hatred, violence, or bloodshed? No... Oh No
He taught us about human brotherhood
And against prejudice he firmly stood He loved children, their hands he’d hold
And taught his followers to respect the old
So would he allow the murder of an innocent child? Oh No...
CHORUS:
Muhammad ya rasulallah
Muhammad ya habiballah
Muhammad ya khalilallah
Muhammad
Muhammad ya rasulallah
Muhammad ya shafi’allah
Muhammad ya bashirallah
Ya rasulallah
Muhammad the light of my eyes
About you they spread many lies
If only they came to realise
Bloodshed you despise
CHORUS
lyrics: Sami Yusuf & Bara Kherigi
composition: Sami Yusuf
© 2005 Awakening"
And guess what, this Album ranked first during the past two months in Egypt and in several Muslim countries.
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stevez
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 29, 2005 - 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by aymanelhakea
Stevez,
let me share with you the lyrics of this song by Sami Yusuf (An international Islamic singer)
"Muhammad (pbuh)
Dedicated to the innocent children of Beslan
Every day I see the same headlines
Crimes committed in the name of the divine
People committing atrocities in his name
They murder and kidnap with no shame
But did he teach hatred, violence, or bloodshed? No... Oh No
He taught us about human brotherhood
And against prejudice he firmly stood He loved children, their hands he’d hold
And taught his followers to respect the old
So would he allow the murder of an innocent child? Oh No...
CHORUS:
Muhammad ya rasulallah
Muhammad ya habiballah
Muhammad ya khalilallah
Muhammad
Muhammad ya rasulallah
Muhammad ya shafi’allah
Muhammad ya bashirallah
Ya rasulallah
Muhammad the light of my eyes
About you they spread many lies
If only they came to realise
Bloodshed you despise
CHORUS
lyrics: Sami Yusuf & Bara Kherigi
composition: Sami Yusuf
© 2005 Awakening"
And guess what, this Album ranked first during the past two months in Egypt and in several Muslim countries.
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Azira Aziz
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 29, 2005 - 06:00 AM
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Message Edited. Please keep posts under 1,000 words.
You don't create freedom of press, and btw the Brits beat you by approx 50 years to it. Hurrah for the redcoats! =P
quote:
________________________________________
Until 1694, England had an elaborate system of licensing. No publication was allowed without the accompaniment of a government-granted license. Fifty years earlier, at a time of civil war, John Milton wrote his pamphlet Areopagitica. In this work Milton argued forcefully against this form of government censorship and parodied the idea, writing "when as debtors and delinquents may walk abroad without a keeper, but unoffensive books must not stir forth without a visible jailer in their title." Although at the time it did little to halt the practice of licensing it would be viewed later a significant milestone in press freedom.
________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_press
Just in case anyone's curious, here's the a quote about the first censorship efforts ever done in written world history (thought I think some ancient civilization has done it before them, no help for it);
quote:
________________________________________
The earliest report of book burning in England was that of William Tyndale's translation of the New Testament (1525-26). In the next century William Prynne's Histrio-Mastix, a criticism of the immorality of the English stage, was burned by the common hangman in 1633, and for criticizing the queen, Prynne was imprisoned, pilloried, and shorn of his ears. In America in 1650, authorities found William Pynchon's theological work, The Meritorious Price of Our Redemption, to be "erronyous and hereticale" and ordered it burned in the Boston marketplace. In 1690 the first American newspaper, Publick Occurrances, was suppressed after the first issue.
________________________________________
http://www.lib.siu.edu/cni/
quote:
________________________________________
some play lip service - some even mean it - but even this week middle-eastern governments could not reach a definition of terrosim with European leaders because they kept wanting to qualify the definitions with "if" and "buts"
they still have a long way to go.
________________________________________
I agree on the former, but you also agree on the latter. Some mean it, and how? They show the pictures of those wanted on the media, lend in their own law enforcement manpower to aid the CIA and such on anti-terrorist missions. When you openly pledge your support, regardless of how I am always at the politicians about how they cannot be trusted, you keep it.
I still remember when the government mistakenly listed my Biology teacher as a terrorist, his picture slapped on the headlines of our main Malay language newspaper. That was funny. I mean, he was a 4'5 pacifist with a long beard, wore the songkok, and couldn't control 35 highly opinionated girls in a classrom. Turned out the 'unexplained' 3-month hiatus of his was because his parents was sick, and he was taking care of them in his kampung (village) plus, he was getting engaged (now married). ROFL. But I digress.
I agree on you saying that the fight against terrorism still has a long way to go, but remember, somebody's terrorist is sometimes somebody elses' freedom fighter. I'm not justifying Osama here, but one of the reason I believe is akin to Malaysia. I mean, UMNO was listed as a terrorist when the Brits proposed Malayan Union, and lookie who's in power in Malaysia now? Not to mention those between the lines unsaid during cultural exchange. The cultural and language barrier, regardless of how much you say it's rude, racist, etc to mention it, is sometimes the reason ome messages don't get through. Remember, what's polite in one culture is also not always acceptable and sometimes even rude in another. Those 'ifs' and 'buts' may frustrate the whole world, but it's the little things that matters, y'know.
Not that I give a shiet about wrangling for hours on a definition. Methinks it's better to put time in saving lives and helping moderates sweet talk those troublesome extremists in any conflicts to avoid it in the first place, but hey, if it keeps them happy, why not?
quote:
________________________________________
1. League of Nations Convention (1937):
"All criminal acts directed against a State and intended or calculated to create a state of terror in the minds of particular persons or a group of persons or the general public".
2. UN Resolution language (1999):
"1. Strongly condemns all acts, methods and practices of terrorism as criminal and unjustifiable, wherever and by whomsoever committed;
2. Reiterates that criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other nature that may be invoked to justify them". (GA Res. 51/210 Measures to eliminate international terrorism)
3. Short legal definition proposed by A. P. Schmid to United Nations Crime Branch (1992):
Act of Terrorism = Peacetime Equivalent of War Crime
4. Academic Consensus Definition:
"Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988).
________________________________________
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terroris...efinitions.html
I learned the Academic Consessus Definition in my Uni, and I think it's the most accurate so far, but the opinion is merely mine.
quote:
________________________________________
When referring to Islamic teachings, we find that Islam is very rich in this field, and we notice that Islamic jurists have delved into the various aspects that relate to the subject.
We have the judgements on al-baghy, i.e. armed revolt
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 29, 2005 - 12:15 PM
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They can try, they can manipulate, they can control what information comes from THEIR OFFICES.
The government can certainly control the information THEY PROVIDE the media.
They can leak certain bites of info at opportune times to spin storied they way they want
But they have NO RIGHTS to tell the media what it can and can't say.
They have tried before - and every time they do the case goes before the Supreme Court - and every time the First Amendment is upheld.
The government cannot even stop Neo-Nazis from starting "newspapers" that say all kinds of crap - even their speech is protected.
This is not to say that there is no callusion between the large corporations that own media outlets and the government -
but good journalists rarely stay in such outfits.
And journalism is by and large left leaning in America, part of the reason Bush is at 36% in the polls is the constant barrage from the press.
"Those 'ifs' and 'buts' may frustrate the whole world, but it's the little things that matters, y'know" - Chibi
totally disagree - any equivocation or lack of moral clarity on the issue will be capitalized on by terrorists - it must be simple and clear. Confusion lends itself to violence and stryfe.
ANYONE who straps a bomb to themselves, or drives a car full of explosives against a civilian target for purely political gain - is a TERRORIST not a FREEDOM FIGHTER.
As for the English etc.
America was THE FIRST country to have Freedom of Press GARUNTEED in the CONSTITUTION.
It doesn't mean they were the first to ever have such an idea or make any such suggestion - it means they were the first to make it LAW.
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Azira Aziz
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 29, 2005 - 12:23 PM
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Americans will always think of the Muslem religion like they do as long as the leaders from that religion do not denounce the terrorism.I don't think one has done it that I have seen.
*Blink* You kidding me? None? I can name you plenty. Go back in the archives of news, BBC, CNN, etc all giving condolences on the whole bloody incident. We all do. Do you support IRA btw?
Remember these muslems kill in the name of Allah.
Dude, the Klu Klux Klan killed black men in the US in the name of Jesus, clad in white garbs decorated in crosses. Christians in Australia desecrate mosques every single time there were bombings even if it was not suffered by Australians. I think it's kinda standard issue, isn't it?
Explain to me what American policies disturb you.I will try to explain them.[/QUOTE]
Explain? I don't need it. I find CNN absolutely interesting tho. CNN isn't world news, and how it really happened. CNN is what the American government wants their people to think about certain issues. It's the same all over the world, of course. Have you watched Al-Jazeera and asessed how the Arab Muslim world view you and themselves? I think the channel would be pretty hard to come by, right? Doesn't that say something about your freedom of speech?
I may live in a predominantly Muslim nation, but hey, at least the government lets us read, watch, and listen to what we will, and not give leading information.
Well, at least outside election times, that is.
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James Dagger
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Just another song...prehaps
November 30, 2005 - 07:44 AM
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No Bravery
by James Blunt
There are children standing here,
Arms outstretched into the sky,
Tears drying on their face.
He has been here.
Brothers lie in shallow graves.
Fathers lost without a trace.
A nation blind to their disgrace,
Since he's been here.
And I see no bravery,
No bravery,
In your eyes anymore.
Only sadness.
And I see no bravery,
No bravery,
In your eyes any more
Only sadness....only sadness
Houses burnt beyond repair.
The smell of death is in the air.
A woman weeping in despair says,
He has been here.
Tracer lighting up the sky.
It's another families turn, to die.
A child afraid to even cry out says,
He has been here.
And I see no bravery,
No bravery,
In your eyes anymore.
Only sadness
And I see no bravery,
No bravery,
In your eyes any more
Only sadness.....only sadness
There are children standing here,
Arms outstretched into the sky,
But no one asks the question why,
He has been here.
Old men kneel to accept their fate.
Wives and daughters cut and raped.
A generation drenched in hate.
Says he has been here.
And I see no bravery,
No bravery,
In your eyes anymore.
Only sadness.
And I see no bravery,
No bravery,
In your eyes any more...
anymore
And I see no bravery,
No bravery,
In your eyes any more,
only sadness...only sadness.
Lyrics from:
http://www.letssingit.com/
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Saladin
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Re: Islamic Extremism / American Imperialism
November 30, 2005 - 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by stevez
I'm sure it's a great song.But until the leaders renounce terrorism and help fight it,I don't think much will change.
bro, ChibiMelody spent lots of time covering that part, just scroll your mouse upwards please...
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