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stevez

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 26, 2005

Originally posted by luke
Steve to the people who know me on this website you sound silly accusing me of appeasement.

Honestly bro, I don't think anyone who actually knew me would accuse me of lacking backbone.


But force without wisedom is just rage - it is blind - bold action without forethought will lead to disaster.

Sun Tzu said in the Art of War - that you must win the battle before it has begun by understanding both your strengths/weaknesses and theirs.


"Don't you think Saddam was athreat to our allies in the middle east,he had alrteady invaded one of them in 1990.Don't you think he might have done it again." - Steve


Steve - Saddam did not even have control of the whole of Iraq - we were operating a no fly zone over 40% of his country - before he could threaten anyone else in the regoin he would have to regain control over the South and the North in Iraq.

Obviously the inspections stripped him of the VAST MAJORITY of his weapons.

So no I don't think he could invade anyone - I think his beating in Gulf War 1 and the subsequent containment policies made him a toothless dog.

In fact as for the safety of our allies in the region - ask the Jordanians if they feel safer.


I would generally agree with toppling Saddam not because he was a threat to us, or the Kuwaities or Israelis - but because he was a threat to IRAQIS. It was his treatment of his own people which was of concern to me.


But the point - if you ask how I would handle it - is that he was contained - and we could afford to be patient, and plan properly - there was NO NEED to rush to war.

I would also have focused on Al Qaeda - which was the truly threatening enemy and which still is.


You see I lived in New York on 9/11 - I saw it with my bare eye - I know people who died that day.


So when Bush couldn't find Bin Laden - after all that "dead or alive" talk - I resented the bait and switch - all of a sudden he was replacing the word "Bin Laden" with the word "Saddam".

All of a sudden Bin Laden - this murderer - was no longer important apparently - and Cheany was trying to tell me that Al Qaeda and Iraq were somehow the same thing.


I am not some stupid rube from the sticks - and I don't appreciate being lied to my face.


Finnally if you want to understand the middle-east - I do not think you will until you spend more time listening to the people who live there and less time yelling angrily at them.


But basically if you lump the whole Islamic world together into this "us" and "them" mentality - then you will end up fighting 1 billion Muslims - you will push the moderate muslims toward the radicals - it will seem like you are waging war on their religion - which is an unwinnable protracted conflict and will result in many innocent deaths.


Rather you should recognise that moderate Muslims are people just like you and me - and you give them hope, draw them near, and make them friends - and isolate the radicals in their own countries.

You need to turn Muslim societies completely against the radicals - they are much more capable of identifying and combating the radicals in their own societies.


If you wage war on "Muslims" then the radicals will be sheltered and their numbers will grow - then they will be seen as "freedom fighters" instead of "terrorists"


intelliegent people from the regoin like Ayman are the ones you whould concern yourself with - I think you you would offend him with your attitude.


Being blindly anti-muslim is the same as being blindly anti-american - when someone starts on with it you are not interested in any point they may want to make.


I never accused you of not having a backbone.You can appease people and still have a backbone.
There is a time though that appeasing ends and backbone comes in.
Didn't Saddam have WMD's at one time,he used them on his own people.Didn't he shoot at our planes in the no fly zone.Were there not 17 UN resolutions against him.Didn't he throw out the inspectors in the late 90's.Didn't he break the treaty he signed with us after the Gulf War.
Didn't the intelligence from not our country but alot of countries say he had WMD's.Didn't the congress vote for war on that intelligence.John Kerry to John McCain saw the intelligence and voted for war.Democrat and republican all voted for it.
Appeasement only goes so far then backbone takes over.
How many more resolutions did you want.
I have many muslem freinds and I don't think all of them are terrorists.
Until the leaders of the muslem community stand up and denounce terrorism and those who do it,muslem peopl will never be trusted.
If you could find a link or news paper article that says Bush and Cheney said that Iraq and Al Qeada were one in the same I would appeciate that.
Also about 9-11.I also saw it with my bare eyes and smelled death.You see I lived in Brooklyn at the time and saw the whole thing from my front porch.My cousin died there and all they found were a few bones,these are what are buried in his coffin.I also lost many friends.


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Saad Iqbal

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 26, 2005

Latest on 26th Nov....
"West offering cash if I quit.", Belarussean President, Alexander Lukashenko recorded his statement.

See..... How the West is reluctant to get a leader of other country down, and not to take part in re-election campgn. on its choice.

Who is the West to interfere in other country's affairs?


This is one little example of present, that the west is never ever willing to see peace in other countries.

However the country is... leave it on its own,
Why is the West peeking it's nose in every1's affairs?

Its Gr8 that someone has raised a voice against west by not accepting that cash. God knows how many would have peacefully accepted that form of bribe all over the world given by US & Israel.

Can any1 plz tell, why the west is reluctant to bribe a leader to peacefully step down?


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 27, 2005

Well Steve since you asked for evidence that the administriation tried to hype to ties between Saddam and Al Qaeda to sell the war - here.

but as you read this evidence - which was frankly easy to find as Cheany and Bush both said any number of times - ask yourself why you are swallowing the Ruplican alking points hook line and sinker.


"The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq.

Along with the contention that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction, President Bush, Vice President Cheney and other top administration officials have often asserted that there were extensive ties between Hussein's government and Osama bin Laden's terrorist network; earlier this year, Cheney said evidence of a link was "overwhelming."


"As recently as Monday, Cheney said in a speech that Hussein "had long-established ties with al Qaeda." Bush, asked on Tuesday to verify or qualify that claim, defended it by pointing to Abu Musab Zarqawi, who has taken credit for a wave of attacks in Iraq."


"In late 2001, Cheney said it was "pretty well confirmed" that Sept. 11 mastermind Mohamed Atta met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official before the attacks, in April 2000 in Prague; Cheney later said the meeting could not be proved or disproved.

Bush, in his speech aboard an aircraft carrier on May 1, 2003, asserted: "The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda and cut off a source of terrorist funding."

"Speaking about Iraq's alleged links to al Qaeda and the Sept. 11 attacks, Cheney connected Iraq to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing by saying that newly found Iraqi intelligence files in Baghdad showed that a participant in the bombing returned to Iraq and "probably also received financing from the Iraqi government as well as safe haven." He added: "The Iraqi government or the Iraqi intelligence service had a relationship with al Qaeda that stretched back through most of the decade of the '90s."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html


"President Bush yesterday defended his assertions that there was a relationship between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda, putting him at odds with this week's finding of the bipartisan Sept. 11 commission.



"The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda: because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda," Bush said after a Cabinet meeting. As evidence, he cited Iraqi intelligence officers' meeting with bin Laden in Sudan. "There's numerous contacts between the two," Bush said.


"In January, Cheney said the "best source" of information on the subject was an article in the Weekly Standard, which reported: "Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda -- perhaps even for Mohamed Atta -- according to a top secret U.S. government memorandum."

Bush, in a February 2003 radio address, said: "Iraq has sent bombmaking and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in acquiring poisons and gases. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner. This network runs a poison and explosive training camp in northeast Iraq, and many of its leaders are known to be in Baghdad."


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 27, 2005

I do agree that until Muslim leaders both political and religious - and indeed until ordinary Mulsims themselves take a much tougher and more proactive stand against terrorism and extremism - they will be feared, and mistrusted.


as an example I will drop this recent article - http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/25/imam.deportation.ap/?section=cnn_topstories


The Imam of Ohio's largest Mosque was arrested for supporting terrorism.

He gave speeches to his congregation (the biggest in the State) in which he called Jews "the sons of monkeys and pigs"


Now if in MY Temple - our Rabbi ever calld Muslims the sons of Monkeys and Pigs - or made any such RACIST comment - I would stand up right then and there and tell that Rabbi to SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN.


I do not understand how this Imam could say these things to a large congregation of Muslims - and NONE of them corrected him, got him removed from his position - or baswically did ANYTHING about it.

this kind of hate speech is EXACT was encourages terrorism - and ordinary Muslims DO have an OBLIGATION to stand up to it whereever they see it.


Those poeple in the congregation who did nothing - who sat complicit in the face of this racism - they bare responsibility.


You guys need to stop acting like victims - and acting like this radicalism is just some obscure few in some far away place.

you need to recognise that the roots of this extremism are found in many places - and that you are able to change this yourselves if you show a little courage.


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stevez

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 27, 2005

Originally posted by saadiqbal
Latest on 26th Nov....
"West offering cash if I quit.", Belarussean President, Alexander Lukashenko recorded his statement.

See..... How the West is reluctant to get a leader of other country down, and not to take part in re-election campgn. on its choice.

Who is the West to interfere in other country's affairs?


This is one little example of present, that the west is never ever willing to see peace in other countries.

However the country is... leave it on its own,
Why is the West peeking it's nose in every1's affairs?

Its Gr8 that someone has raised a voice against west by not accepting that cash. God knows how many would have peacefully accepted that form of bribe all over the world given by US & Israel.

Can any1 plz tell, why the west is reluctant to bribe a leader to peacefully step down?


Where did you read that?What is the link.
Maybe the west should stop handing out money of any sorts to countries.We could see how the world really gets along then.


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Saladin

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 27, 2005

Originally posted by stevez
Didn't Saddam have WMD's at one time,he used them on his own people.Didn't he shoot at our planes in the no fly zone.Were there not 17 UN resolutions against him.Didn't he throw out the inspectors in the late 90's.Didn't he break the treaty he signed with us after the Gulf War.
Didn't the intelligence from not our country but alot of countries say he had WMD's.Didn't the congress vote for war on that intelligence.


Bro, please enlighten me, and tell me who gave Saddam his WMDs in the 1980s, by which he gased Iranians and Kurds ?
Haven't you heard about the US and European aid to Iraq during its war with the Islamic Revolution of Iran ? I'm not defending a tyrant dictator; I'm just bringing facts.

Do you know how many UN resolutions were issued against Israel, and vetoed against by the US ? -More than 30 resolutions-...does this make any sense ?

What do you guess you know about the Middle East from Brooklyn ? What do you know about the evolution of Arabism? Pan-Islamism? Islamic schools of thinking ? Islamic politics? Islamic economics? Where did you get your information from? At least you should admit that people here should know their region's politics better than you do, because they are experiencing it.

Of course I share deep sympathy and grief with you because of your cousin -may God bless his soul-...but we really need to keep emotions aside in order to avoid calling 1 billion people as "terrorists"...or to accuse Islam as being not a peaceful religion...this is unacceptable xenophobia bro...it's mind terrorism.


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Saladin

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 27, 2005

Originally posted by luke

intelliegent people from the regoin like Ayman are the ones you whould concern yourself with - I think you you would offend him with your attitude.


Thank you Luke for this comment; it's really a merit I don't deserve.


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stevez

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 27, 2005

Originally posted by aymanelhakea
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stevez
[B] Didn't Saddam have WMD's at one time,he used them on his own people.Didn't he shoot at our planes in the no fly zone.Were there not 17 UN resolutions against him.Didn't he throw out the inspectors in the late 90's.Didn't he break the treaty he signed with us after the Gulf War.
Didn't the intelligence from not our country but alot of countries say he had WMD's.Didn't the congress vote for war on that intelligence.


Bro, please enlighten me, and tell me who gave Saddam his WMDs in the 1980s, by which he gased Iranians and Kurds ?
Haven't you heard about the US and European aid to Iraq during its war with the Islamic Revolution of Iran ? I'm not defending a tyrant dictator; I'm just bringing facts.

Do you know how many UN resolutions were issued against Israel, and vetoed against by the US ? -More than 30 resolutions-...does this make any sense ?

What do you guess you know about the Middle East from Brooklyn ? What do you know about the evolution of Arabism? Pan-Islamism? Islamic schools of thinking ? Islamic politics? Islamic economics? Where did you get your information from? At least you should admit that people here should know their region's politics better than you do, because they are experiencing it.

Of course I share deep sympathy and grief with you because of your cousin -may God bless his soul-...but we really need to keep emotions aside in order to avoid calling 1 billion people as "terrorists"...or to accuse Islam as being not a peaceful religion...this is unacceptable xenophobia bro...it's mind terrorism.




[/B][/QUOTE]
I was aware that the US gave Saddam WMD's,I am also aware that the US armed BinLaden when Afganistan was at war with Russia.
Why don't you tell me about the resolutions that were brought on Isreal.That the US voted against.I'm sure they weren't about invading another country or throwing out weapons inspectors,or lying about weapons they have.
Tell me about arabic history and politics,Tell me about the suppresion of woman,tell me of the laws from the middle ages.Tell me about economics were some arabic countries have 50 percent unemployment.But meanwhile your oil men have billions,while alot of your population lives in despair.
I never called all muslems terrorist,I said that if the religious leaders don't step foward and explain and denounce terrorism,then people will always think muslem are terrorists.
Now explain to me why the leaders of countries and religious leaders have not denounced terrorism?

As far as you knowing about YOUR region's politics -- you know what your government wants you to know. Al Jezeera is propaganda against the United States. I say to you that if Islam is a peaceful religion == why do they kill innocent people -- including their own -- in the name of Allah? I know as a Roman Catholic that if suddenly my religion began killing innocent children and saying they did it in Jesus' name -- I WOULD DENOUCE MY RELIGION. I have yet to hear any leader or high priest openly denounce the likes of al queda or bin laden???

Please do not lecture me about your peaceful beliefs! Here in America -- it is not as apparent when 3000 people were killed IN THE NAME OF ALLAH.

As for politics I see Egypt is having their first democratic election,or so that is what they are calling it.Your present president has been in office,how long? 25 years and the previous guy was assasinated.Probally by the guy in office now.
Tell me about your free elections,I saw people being beat at the polls on Tv.Tell me about that.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 28, 2005

Steve - you are just ducking and dodging - actually neither source was the weekly Standard - it was just quoted within the source -

and it was taken from a transcript of "Face the Nation" - it really doesn't matter the political leaning of the paper that publishes a transcript.


Cheney quoted the weekly standard - are you reading this stuff or am I just wasting my time?


BOTH articles pointed out how the adminstraition tried to hype ties between Iraq and AL Qaeda - so there is no disagreement between them.


As for Saddam - he was no threat to us - to his own people - certainly, and the Israelis.


If you are asking me if the world is safer right now - no frankly I don't think we are - we have destabilized the situation.


We have provided a recruitment vehicle for Al Qaeda much more valuable than anything Saddam might have been providing them - which seems to be nothing.



A simple question - since our invasion - are there MORE people interested in committing acts of terrorism - or less? I think there are alot more.


As I said before I am not opposed in principal to removing Saddam - just like I was not opposedto removing Milosovich - I am opposed to the foolhardy RUSH TO WAR - and all of the problems, deaths, and financial woes which have followed.


That was absolutely NO REASON to rush into this without really thinking it through - and it is plain that it was not thought through.


I also resent the cronism, yes men, and the fact the Administriation stubbornly refused to listen to anyone with a contrary view to how they decided things were going to be done.

It is obvious that many of these warnings should have been heeded - particularly the ones about troop levels at the beginning of the war.

instead they were more interested in denying mistakes until they were literally blowing up in their face.



"they can't be trusted" -

Who is "they"??? "US" and "THEM" seems like very shallow thinking to me.


As for how we got into this - it is relevant - because frankly I don't trust the Bush administration AT ALL.

And what is more concerning Republicans such as yourself are such party loyalists that you deny facts that are staring you in the face, you simply refuse to hold your own leaders accountable.

This is why they are so irresponsible. It is why the Republican party is unethical and lacks integrity -


You guys need to start being real, and stop trying to explain away every bald face lie and stunning example of incompetance.


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Saladin

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 29, 2005

Message Edited. Please keep posts under than 1,000 words.

[Why don't you tell me about the resolutions that were brought on Isreal.That the US voted against.I'm sure they weren't about invading another country or throwing out weapons inspectors,or lying about weapons they have.]-Stevez

I'm glad to tell you about that issue bro; Israel invaded Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Palestinian territories over the past 50 years...the US used its veto 32 times to shield Israel from critical draft resolutions between 1972 and 1997. This constitutes nearly half of the total of 69 US vetoes cast since the founding of the UN. I'll only limit myself to the first pro-Israeli US veto against a security-council draft resolution...The draft resolution had condemned Israel’s heavy air attacks against Lebanon and Syria, starting September 6, the day after 11 Israeli athletes were killed at the 1972 Munich Olympic Games in an unsuccessful Palestinian attempt to seize them as hostages to trade for Palestinian prisoners in Israel. Between 200 and 500 Lebanese, Syrians and Palestinians, mostly civilians, were killed in the Israeli raids. I'm puzzled that you don't know anything about it...it's just one example of many...if you're just interested to know more:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/p-neff-veto.html



-Tell me about arabic history and politics,Tell me about the suppresion of woman,tell me of the laws from the middle ages.- Stevez

What about Arab history and politics? Suppression of women? Laws from the middle ages? What are you talking about?

In those "middle ages" the Arab world was the wealthiest, most civilized and prosperous region of the world while Europeans were treating their patients with deamons...

What kind of suppression of women are you referring to? The headscarf? Just take this example: Turkish women demonstrate for their right of wearing the headscarves, that is banned by the secular regime inside official establishments. In addition, Islam's view towards women is completely different from the way people behave these days in the Arab region...judge the people..not the religion.

What you're saying about "laws from middle ages" demonstrates that you don't know anything about our law systems. From 22 Arab countries, only Saudi Arabia and Sudan are the ones who "pretend" that they implement Shari'ah Law,..in Egypt -the most populous Arab country- we implement the French Law. I said "pretend" because Shari'ah itself should be focused on a balance between religious renewal "ijtihad", and religious fundamentals...those guys are just keeping the fundamentals, and mixing them with local culture, while rejecting any kind of "ijtihad"...

The term "ijtihad" itself contains the meaning of "renewal"...such that the expression "laws from the middle ages" can be only true to the "Saudi" Shari'ah, and not to the "Islamic" Shari'ah, since the latter can be subject for re-reading, re-interpretation, and creativity, according to any upcoming circumstances.

Honestly, I see that the solutions of the Muslim world's problems are in applying the correct Islamic Shari'ah.

-Tell me about economics were some arabic countries have 50 percent unemployment.But meanwhile your oil men have billions,while alot of your population lives in despair.-

Wow...so sad...and what did you do about that? I think you shouldn't be sad with the Arab trillions of dollars in US. Of course the Arab world has lot of corruption,...but it's going in the benefit of the US...isn't it? Just tell me who is supporting the middle East dictators, especially in th Gulf?

-I never called all muslems terrorist,I said that if the religious leaders don't step foward and explain and denounce terrorism,then people will always think muslem are terrorists.- Stevez

Good to hear the first part of the sentence...but it's not my problem that you don't know about LOTS of religious scholars here who have long ago denounced terrorism, and are still denouncing it...like Amr Khaled, and Al-Habib Ali Al Jifri (Extremely popular Islamic scholars throughout the Muslim world), added to Sami Yusuf and Mesut Kurtiz (Two famous international Islamic singers) ...just have a look at these webistes to know about the efforts of those two gentlemen in spreading tolerance and fighting unemployment, oppression of women, drugs, etc..:

http://www.betterfutureconference.com
http://www.rightstart.org.uk/

-Now explain to me why the leaders of countries and religious leaders have not denounced terrorism?- Stevez

Maybe because your country did not tell you anything about that...

-As far as you knowing about YOUR region's politics - you know what your government wants you to know.Al Jezeera is propaganda against the United States.- Stevez

Once again, this demonstrates that you don't know anything about MY region. I've never trusted my government's media....but the question goes back..do you trust your own government's media?

What has Al-Jazeerah to do with Egypt? Al-jazeerah is a private media firm located in Qatar. Actually my country's views towards Al-Jazeerah are hostile ones....I've never heard any Egyptian official appreciating Al-Jazeerah. The fact that you think I'm repeating what my government says sounds absurd.

-I say to you that if Islam is a peaceful religion == why do they kill innocent people -- including their own -- in the name of Allah? I know as a Roman Catholic that if suddenly my religion began killing innocent children and saying they did it in Jesus' name -- I WOULD DENOUCE MY RELIGION.- Stevez

Are you denying that Roman Catholics killed others in the name of Jesus? What about Crusades and Inquisitions bro? Haven't you met with those two terms anywhere?

[The First Crusade was launched in 1095 with the battle cry "Deus Vult" (God wills it), a mandate to destroy infidels in the Holy Land. Gathering crusaders in Germany first fell upon "the infidel among us," Jews in the Rhine valley, thousands of whom were dragged from their homes or hiding places and hacked to death or burned alive. Then the religious legions plundered their way 2,000 miles to Jerusalem, where they killed virtually every inhabitant, "purifying" the symbolic city. Cleric Raymond of Aguilers wrote: "In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees and even to the horses' bridles, by the just and marvelous judgment of God."]*

[In the Third


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Azira Aziz

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 29, 2005

[Message Edited. Please keep posts under 1,000 words]

...The Muslims will have their rights upheld (I think UN sent a team, but I'm not sure). We don't impose nothing, even when the problem is messing with our boarders, and here's USA wrangling about an Arab nation's tyrant WAAAAAAY far from home.

And if USA is so bent on liberation and messing with politics, why won't you free Ang San Su Kyi in Myanmar? Why accept Myanmar in WTO? Yeah, we accept Myanmar in ASEAN because they exist in our region whether we like it or not, and they affect us directly. If USA is the police nation, they should've intervened in the blatant disrespect of democracy, the elections which was overthrown by the military Juntas and so forth.

Don't see that happening, y'all. =P
quote:
________________________________________
Have you ever actually talked to an Iraqi Shia? Do you have the first clue what you are talking about?

If the Irqis could have done something like the Lebbonese did - of course this would have been the best - but it was simply not possible.
________________________________________


No, I don't need to talk to an Iraqi (of which I believe you have never contacted anyway) to understand issues. I have something called a brain connected to fingers which reaches to countless information from those who were there, and truly understand the situation. I've read blogs about everyday life (in English) though it has lost its luster due to its everyday nature.

Other than the scary war and violence, they're just like any of us.
quote:
________________________________________
I have no idea where I suggested tht America was alutristic in its policies - it is self interested - every government does - who spends billions of $ and sacrifices thousands of soldiers if they do not think it is for their own benefit.
________________________________________


hah! You saw the light again! You kept saying that US only wants to liberate and spread democracy! Exactly, Luke.
quote:
________________________________________
But you somehow assume that our interests and the Iraqis do not meet - that we do not have common insterests - such as a stable democracy in the middle-east with a capaitalist system -

That is in OUR intesrests as well as theirs.
________________________________________


Blast it, Luke. Common interests my foot. Democracy is a lovely ideology, I am benefiting from it as well, but is it enough to go to all that trouble with all the bells on to Iraq? Afghanistan I can understand, I support the screwing of Osama, but Iraq? Hell no! It's no different than the damn Crusades, and the White Men Burden thang going on in my side of the world. It sounds like a new kind of imperialism to me, and believe me I still have the elders telling me about the horrible old days. The days of the British, the Jap and the Communists are all horrible. I would wish it on no one, Luke.

This is where I stand.
quote:
________________________________________
Anyway - that line about selling your soul to Satan - I'ld like to hear you say that to Hammodi - you see he is actually from Iraq and knows what he is talking about - and I have seen him set ignorant presumptious people like yourself straight any number of times.

You don't think he loves Iraq? I think he cares much more about it than you do.
________________________________________


Oh, be a sport Luke. This is a debate like any other, and it is meant to be a learning experience. I learn something, and perhaps so do you. Win-win situation, and you might never know when you call others names that it would be describing yourself as well.

And yes, I do have opinions. Like I have said though, we Asians believe in saving face. Don't make me say it again.

If it's this Hammadi you mean, he's Tunisian. What relevent has he on Iraq? If he's a former Iraqi or something (couldn't find extra info yet), if he was born, raised, etc there, it kinda goes without saying that I agree, eh?
quote:
________________________________________
On Oct. 18, leaders of seven civil society groups went on an "unlimited hunger strike" to protest these and other attacks on basic liberties, including the ongoing imprisonment of nearly 500 political activists - among them the newspaper editor Hammadi Jebali, who has been behind bars for nearly 15 years - jailed for their peaceful opposition to the government. In doing so, they hope to draw the world's attention to Tunisia's dangerous slide into tyranny
________________________________________


http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11...on/edlabidi.php

I support these breed of people, lawyers, common men who fight for civil/human rights. I will be one when I graduate (Blast Act 174, no participation whatsoever against the gov clause) from Law School ^_~.

------------------------------------------------------
quote:
________________________________________
A simple question - since our invasion - are there MORE people interested in committing acts of terrorism - or less? I think there are alot more.
________________________________________


quote:
________________________________________
As I said before I am not opposed in principal to removing Saddam - just like I was not opposedto removing Milosovich - I am opposed to the foolhardy RUSH TO WAR - and all of the problems, deaths, and financial woes which have followed.
________________________________________


Read the first part of my reply, ut I agree with the latter part as well.
quote:
________________________________________
I also resent the cronism, yes men, and the fact the Administriation stubbornly refused to listen to anyone with a contrary view to how they decided things were going to be done.
________________________________________


There will always be cronyism, Luke, as long as there are lobbyists. 67000 lobbyists are hired by the USA government, 125 for each elected in Congress, don'tcha know? Prior to Iraq, Bruce Jackson was reputed to has travelled around Eastern-Europe to garner support for the military-led action, through the seduction of US's push for their NATO membership.

-50 facts that should change the world by Jessica Williams.
quote:
________________________________________

"they can't be trusted" -

Who is "they"??? "US" and "THEM" seems like very shallow thinking to me.
________________________________________


Ditto.


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Azira Aziz

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Dec 1, 2005

Stevez, you make one liner replies. You have no credible academical references, and I doubt you even scanned through the entire thread and lengthy explanations that ayman, me and the rest of us has put it.

So why are you here again?


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Saladin

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Dec 1, 2005

-Are the woman of the arab world allowed the same rights as men in the arab countries.- Stevez

No, they aren't, you're are right about that, but this is because Islam is not implemented in the correct way.


-Why don't you tell me about the religious leaders and your politocians that denounce it and are stopping it.- Stevez

You seem too lazy to look at the links about Amr Khaled and Al-Habib Al-Jifri bro...

-I trust certain parts of my media,because I know it's not a joke like al jazeera.- Stevez

Sorry, who's speaking? Remeber that the video tape showing Bin Laden claiming responsibilities of the 9-11 attacks were Al-JAZEERAH EXCLUSIVE. This tape was a major justification of the US war on Afghanistan. Don't you find this puzzling bro? The US trusting Al-Jazeerah?


-You talk of the greatness of the Middle East...it all happened 800 years ago.The crusades all that was a long time ago.- Stevez

What about the KKK, Ulster, Timothy Mc Veigh, and the Army of God in Uganda? Were they in the Middle ages too?

-We are supposed to be civilized not crashing planes into building and killing innocent people in the name of Allah.- Stevez

Of course I unequivocally consider it to be a barbaric act, but again, who's speaking? Do you think the US army killing hundreds of thousands of CIVILIANS in Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Haïti, Serbia, Iraq, and elsewhere under the cliché of democracy or whatever, was a "civilized" action?

-How can you compare WW2 to Islamic terrorism.Hitler was taking over Europe and had to be stopped.- Stevez

It was Hitler that had to be stopped, not the 300,000 CIVILIANS who were murderd in three days....the massacre of Dresden is a war crime bro -in the name of STOPPING Hitler and spreding democracy and freedom-...it's something that could be even worse than Islamic terrorism who killed 3000 civilians in one day.

-Hey Bro we can argue until forever,I have my ideas and you have yours.One differance though...I can say mine in public without getting stoned to death. I will talk to you later my friend.- Stevez

Stoned to death? lol....I've never heard about anyone stoned to death for something he/she has said in this region...

What to you think about us here in the Middle East bro? Are we living in tents? Do I go to work by camel? I'm really curious to know what kind of books have you read about the Middle East...maybe "Arabian Nights".


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Moustafa Mohamed Hussein

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Dec 1, 2005

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16397937&method=full&siteid=94762& headline=exclusive--bush-plot-to-bomb-his-arab-ally-name_page.html

if aljazeerah was a joke channel, why would bush care to attacch it?


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stevez

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Dec 1, 2005

Originally posted by ChibiMelody
Stevez, you make one liner replies. You have no credible academical references, and I doubt you even scanned through the entire thread and lengthy explanations that ayman, me and the rest of us has put it.

So why are you here again?


I am here for the America bashing.Unfortunatly I have time limitations on what I read.My days are usually filled with my job,my children,and just plain living.I apologize if I haven't read everything through to your satisfaction.I also don't give long answers because I don't type to fast.


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