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Saladin

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 21, 2005

-Those 3000 were killed by Saudi muslems in the name of Allah Peace.-

Yeah, true, LOL..do u think Allah is happy with them ? + DOES IT MEAN THAT I AM A TERRORRIST BECOZ I'M MUSLIM ????????

what about the 1,000,000 Iraqi children who were killed because of the sanctions imposed on Iraq from 1991 to 2003, and the count is still going on...in the name of DEMOCRACY. What about Muslims who died in Chechnya, Nagorno-Karabah, East Turkestan, Afghanistan,Kosovo, and Bosnia ?

What about the KKK, ETA, the IRA, the Tamil Tigers, UNITA, FARC, the Contras, the PKK, the POLISARIO, the Maoist militias of Nepal, the Ugandan Army of the Lord, the Haganah, the Stirn, the Irgun, the Zapatistas, Timothy McVeigh, the Mafia, the Yakooza, the guerillas in Côte d'Ivoire, Liberia, Mozambique, DR Congo, and Sierra Leone ?

They basically have nothing to do with Islam....terrorism is an international phenomenon sir, it's just the media that picks up attacks done by Muslims and focuses selectively on them...and on the other hand; Islam is not only a religion; it's a life ideology...having extremist as well as moderate interpretations...just like socialism, capitalism, democracy, etc...

My hometown Alexnadria was destroyed and completely burned by the British fleet in 1882. After the massacre, Marshall Seymour -the fleet commander-, declared that it was a [victory of Britain and its allies over "Islamic Fundamentalism"]...so simple to describe ordinary people fighting back against invaders as being fanatics...this only demonstrates that religious fanaticism exists everywhere.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 21, 2005

Guys - this is silly.

Steve Muslims are not terrorists - it is basically a group of socioaths who thinly cloak themselves in religion.

Much like the KKK did back in the day when they quoted bible verses while hanging black people.

do you think the KKK had the first idea about Christianity - or where their murders in the name of Christ nothing more than the acts of ignorant lunatics and fanatics.


that said Ayman - to say that this is somehow the medias fault that the perception of Islamic terrorism exists is simlply NONESENSE.

These Islamic extremists have committed brutal acts of terrorism in over 25 countries.


In short it is not CNN's fault - it is Al Qaeda's. And as I have been saying for a long time if Mulsim leaders have an ounce of backbone - they would clean their own house.


They would recognise the anti-islamic sentiment, the fear and hatred toward muslims that is being generated by the actions of these extremists - and they would act to end this madness.


Thy would arrest radical clerics who preach hatred, schools that teach it, and people who practice it.



Steve to answer your question a large measure of why they are having troubl doing it is the issue of moral clarity - you see MANY Muslims saw the Palestinian groups like Hamas as freedom fighters.

They thought such ctions were justified when carried out against the Israelis - but now this practice (Jihad) has spread beyond any measure of conrol and it is being used EVERYWHERE a disaffected Muslim group thinks there is injustice.


Now normal muslims are appalled by this monstrosity - jihad against America, against England, Spain, Italy, Australia, Tiawan, China, Russia, India - and now finally they see Jihad against other Muslims as recently occured in Jordan - so the madness has come full circle.


And yet among the leadership there is still hesitation to totally condemn all these acts - because it would mean that the Palestiians had been wrong to do it all along.


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Saad Iqbal

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 22, 2005

----------
saadiqbal - the leadership in the Muslim world has a LOOONG way to go in dealing with this issue - you still have countries like Iran and Syria providing shelter and material support. there are Radical Clerics in mosques throughout the Middle-east who daily glorify the "myrters" as heros.----- (Luke)
----------

My Dear Luke,
Do u still remember that Iraq was blamed for posessing W.M.D's before the Iraq war. The war was fought on this issue, but sorry to say, v r still hooked on to our TV sets 2 find any clue about Iraq's posession of WMDs.

Did they find any?

I dont think so.... But thousands of innocents killed and the person who was held responsible is still alive!!

Thousands widowed, millions orphaned, disabled and billions of dollars spent---- to no avail, just destruction.

Can v say that these are the deeds of gr8 leaders?

I M a muslim, I go to mosque to offer prayers 5 times a day, I also listen to sermons, but here in pakistan, I have never ever heard any such thing from the speakers. They just give message to make our lives better and to live peacefully with other and not to hurt others.
Where can v find such mosques as luke pointed out?
I m sure, they r present on the media only!

"Islam gives the message of Peace with all, those mosques preaching hatred, I think they r not following Islam."

How can such a religion preach hatred when it teaches to say " Salaam (meaning Peace)" to evry1 u meet.

In PAkistan, i have seen many non muslims come & listen to the sermons, no one ever points them out. They enjoy these peaceful sermons.

No Islamic mosques preaches such things. Go & experience ur self, I guarantee u all!

Cheer Up!

Peace (Salaam)


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 22, 2005

Are you denying that there are clerics in the Middle East preaching a radical brand of religion?


I do not think it is the norm - I do not think that MOST Clerics are this way - but no doubt there are some that are convincing agnst ridden kids to blow themselves up.

There are thousands of jihadists who wish to make war with other countries.

Do you reolize that Islamic extrememists have committed acts of terrorism in 26 countries in the last 5 years.


I am not suggesting that YOU are a terrorist. I am simply suggesting that your societies could be doing more to combat terrorism both in the literal sense of identifying and disrupting terrorist cells.


and by public campeigns meant to take any legitimacy or pretext away from their actions.



There is no question that certain Clerics in Saudi Arabia have been providing an ideological backing.

And the President of Iran called for Israel's destruction a month ago.



You mentioned WMD in Iraq -


This is not the subject - we are talking about Islamic extremism.

What does that have to do with - terrorist acts in Kashmir for instance - or against Israel, or Russia, or Indonesia


Saddam HAD WMD - the inspectors found TONS of the stuff back in the 90's.

the question is if they had any left.



But I do not look at the Iraq war as being about WMD - I never really thought they had much.

It was more about creating change in the middle-east - WMD was just a pretext.


Wether you think it was right or wrong - I know a number of Iraqis who basically consider a better alternative to Saddam.


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Ashraf

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 22, 2005

Originally posted by stevez
Those 3000 were killed by Saudi muslems in the name of Allah
Peace.


...and hundreds of thousands of Muslims were butchered by the European Christians during the crusades in the name of Christ...so is Christianity a "terrorist" religion?


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 22, 2005

you are really going to go back to the Crusades - it is amazing to me that I find Muslims who are still upset about the Crusades 1000 years later.


bro Muslims killed Thousands of non-beleivers in its Jihadist Wars which spread from North Africa to Asia Minor -


I think there is a better way to answer this question.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 23, 2005

Palestinain - terrorists are terrorists.

When the Chechen rebels took an entire school hostige and wired a gymnasuem full of children with explosives - when they killed hundreds of them -


this is terrorism - this is not freedom fighting - period.


As for connecting the Chechens rebel groups to Al Qaeda - it is not a matter of perception.


THEY have connected THEMSELVES to Al Qaeda - they are wroking together - why do you think the Pakistanis found all those Chechens in the terrorist training camps in northern Pakistan?

they had camps in Afghanistan as well which were discovered during the war in 2001.


I think you forget that before Bin Laden was fighting America - he was fighting Russia.



Ayman - if 1000 years from now America is using 9/11 as an excuse in arguements...

Its like being married 40 years and bringing up stuff from the first year in an arguement with your wife - anchient history - get over it.


Egypt made SLAVES of the Jews - should I still be upset with Egyptians? - give me a break.


And I think you are forgetting that the Ottoman Empire, and previous powerful Arabic Empires invaded Eastern Europe any number of times.



"Whose idea do you think it was? After Sept 11, Malaysia, who has suffered from terrorism (the good ole' days of communism), advised you folks. As usual, in the way Uncle Sam always does, they take all the credit. Dude, who told you to go digging for mosquitoes in other people's lands when the elephants on your own land stomps unnoticed. Actually, the Brits was partly credited and somewhat responsible too, but nvm. " - Chibi


I have no idea what you are trying to say here.


"Anyways, it's simply a miscalculation by a novice preside" - Chibi


oh I see - I suppose that is as good an excuse as any for calling for another countries destruction.

As though he did not understand the meaning of his own words when he said them.


"Islamic extremism. It's implying all Muslims are terrorists" - Chibi

Nonsense - it does no such thing - it simply refers to Islamic radicals as opposed to Jewish radicals or Christian radicals or Hindu radicals.

Bin Laden is an Islamic Extremist - he certainly is not a Christian extremist is he?


"starting in the 1980's, Clinton himself (or whoever is the president then)" - Chibi


Jesus - Chibi you act like you have a clue as to what you are talking about - when you don't even know WHO you are talking about. Just whatever you vaguely hear you think supports your position you consider a fact.


Why don't you start by figuring out who was President of the United States in the 80's.


But I do not look at the Iraq war as being about WMD - I never really thought they had much. It was more about creating change in the middle-east - WMD was just a pretext.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Here's one patriotic American who laps up the government garbage like no other" - Chibi


Actually if you bother to understand anything I am saying - I simply said I never really beleived he had WMD anymore - certainly not in quantities that could be a danger to the US.

I never bought Cheany's bit about Saddam planning to attack us - And you are welcome to look back at stuff I wrote on this website 3 years ago to verify it.

to me that was never the point - to me it was similar to Milosovich - just a bastard abusing his people.


The rest of this what you wrote is just naive nonsense -

you think the Iraq people should have changed Saddam's regeime themselves - they tried that - 300,000 were slaughtered in about 3 months - or are you ignorant of this history as you seem to be of all others?

Have you ever actually talked to an Iraqi Shia? Do you have the first clue what you are talking about?

If the Irqis could have done something like the Lebbonese did - of course this would have been the best - but it was simply not possible.


I have no idea where I suggested tht America was alutristic in its policies - it is self interested - every government does - who spends billions of $ and sacrifices thousands of soldiers if they do not think it is for their own benefit.


But you somehow assume that our interests and the Iraqis do not meet - that we do not have common insterests - such as a stable democracy in the middle-east with a capaitalist system -

That is in OUR intesrests as well as theirs.



Anyway - that line about selling your soul to Satan - I'ld like to hear you say that to Hammodi - you see he is actually from Iraq and knows what he is talking about - and I have seen him set ignorant presumptious people like yourself straight any number of times.

You don't think he loves Iraq? I think he cares much more about it than you do.


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Saladin

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 23, 2005

Originally posted by luke


Ayman - if 1000 years from now America is using 9/11 as an excuse in arguements...

Its like being married 40 years and bringing up stuff from the first year in an arguement with your wife - anchient history - get over it.




Luke, you're using the same kind of argument yourself:


Originally posted by luke
And I think you are forgetting that the Ottoman Empire, and previous powerful Arabic Empires invaded Eastern Europe any number of times.



-----------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by luke
Egypt made SLAVES of the Jews - should I still be upset with Egyptians? - give me a break.



So easy to say that Jews were slaves in Egypt. This is a funny joke. Until the 1950s, Jews possessed the most wealthy firms in Egypt: 'Ads, Ben-Zion, Hanaux, Rivoli, Mizrahi, Chicorel, and many other businesses. Jewish architects designed Egyptian districts such as Shamma'ah and Semouha in Alexandria, and Toriel in Al-Mansurah. Even the Egyptian cinema featured many Jewish film titles such as "Fatima, Marika, and Rachel", and "Hassan, Morcos, and Cohen". Jews were essentially landowners and bankers in Egypt, until the foundation of the state of Israel.


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Olexi

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 23, 2005

I would like to comment on Luke's statement about the "terrorists attacks" in Russia.

These are clearly acts of Cechnia's struggle for independence. Russia is interested in positioning Chechenian rebels as fanatics in order to put its genocidal war in Chechnia in one line with the popular war-on-terror agenda of the US.

You can't be serious in mixing political agenda that Cechenians, Iraqis and Palestinians have, with Al Qaeda. This is simply ridiculoussmile


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Ashraf

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 23, 2005

Olexi,

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. The aggressors will ALWAYS call those who resist them "terrorists", "fanatics", "fundamentalists", "criminals", "destroyers of peace", etc etc.

The "war on terror" is just an excuse to do more aggression on other countries. Yesterday it was Iraq and tomorrow it will be Syria, Iran....and the list continues.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 23, 2005

"Luke, you're using the same kind of argument yourself:"- Ayman


yeah I know - it is to make the point that the Muslims and Christians used to fight alot - and there is no point bringing up anchient history as though it is still really relevant today.


"So easy to say that Jews were slaves in Egypt. This is a funny joke." - Ayman


sigh - Ayman - bro - I was talking about Pharoah and the building of the Pyramids - Moses etc. not the 50's


I am making a point - it is silly to rehash ancheint history like the Crusades.


It is as silly to bring up the Crusades in the context of a modern conflict - as it is for me to bring up the Jewish slavery in Egypt.



The point is that for you guys to still be upset about the Crusades is like me be upset with Egyptians about the slavery that occured thousands of years ago.

it is all anchient history - let sleeping dogs lie.


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Saladin

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 23, 2005

Luke,

of course we should be upset with the Crusades dating back from 1000 years ago....the same way Americans should be upset 1000 years after 9-11. People must die in any war, but comparing the Islamic expansion to the Crusade is just NONESENSE.

Just see the contrast between the way the Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099, and the way Saladin recaptured it from them in 1187.

The crusaders simply "slaughtered the whole city", -in the name of Christ-, and the Muslims granted peace, freedom of worship, and safety of lives and properties for all of the city inhabitants...this is the true "JIHAD", that is distinctly different from the asymmetric warfare taking place these days....history expalins that matter thoroughly.

When Muslims captured Andalusia, they did not "kick out" the local population, and the region became the most attractive place to Jews...after it was a landmark of anti-semiticism under the Christian Wisigoths. Christains were also enjoying freedom of worship and Andalusia became a landmark of religious and cultural tolerance. The ironic thing is that after the Reconquista had succeeded in "kicking out" the Muslims from Spain, Jews who lived there had no choice but to migrate to the Ottoman empire or "The Islamic Caliphate".


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stevez

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 23, 2005

Originally posted by Palestinian
Olexi,

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. The aggressors will ALWAYS call those who resist them "terrorists", "fanatics", "fundamentalists", "criminals", "destroyers of peace", etc etc.

The "war on terror" is just an excuse to do more aggression on other countries. Yesterday it was Iraq and tomorrow it will be Syria, Iran....and the list continues.



The war on terror is just an excuse to be aggressive to other countries.I don't think so.
I hope my country is aggressive against syria,iran and any other country that houses terrorists.
These people that perform terrorist attacks must be punished and the countries that stand behind them also must be.
What do you think the American people want a war in your countries.
The list will continue as long as muslem terrorists blow up inocent people(including their own)in the name of their religon and Allah.


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Azira Aziz

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 23, 2005

Better late than never.

Are you denying that there are clerics in the Middle East preaching a radical brand of religion?


I do not think it is the norm - I do not think that MOST Clerics are this way - but no doubt there are some that are convincing agnst ridden kids to blow themselves up.

There are thousands of jihadists who wish to make war with other countries.

Do you reolize that Islamic extrememists have committed acts of terrorism in 26 countries in the last 5 years.


Did you know that CIA, not to mention your army has intervened and was partly responsible or were co-manipulators in various equally henieous acts equal to terrorism? Sheesh, man. How many times do I have to ask you to dig into the CIA Factbook? (For folks interested checkout some other threads I argued with Luke about this, or highly related, I am not going to waste my time repeating them).


I am simply suggesting that your societies could be doing more to combat terrorism both in the literal sense of identifying and disrupting terrorist cells and by public campeigns meant to take any legitimacy or pretext away from their actions.


Whose idea do you think it was? After Sept 11, Malaysia, who has suffered from terrorism (the good ole' days of communism), advised you folks. As usual, in the way Uncle Sam always does, they take all the credit. Dude, who told you to go digging for mosquitoes in other people's lands when the elephants on your own land stomps unnoticed. Actually, the Brits was partly credited and somewhat responsible too, but nvm.

There is no question that certain Clerics in Saudi Arabia have been providing an ideological backing.

*snort* They're Wahabiyyah (or somewhere along there). That sect is unchanged since Islam Hijrah began 1500 years ago. You think?


And the President of Iran called for Israel's destruction a month ago.


Oh, yeah. The discussions in the other thread originated by Luke. You people can checkout my replies there. Anyways, it's simply a miscalculation by a novice president, and Palestine has a better right to the land more than Israel ever did. Argue out there, not here, okay, Luke?


You mentioned WMD in Iraq -

Methinks he was pointing out how Americans create stories to legalize and mask their true intentions and actions. Simple, Luke.

This is not the subject - we are talking about Islamic extremism.

What does that have to do with - terrorist acts in Kashmir for instance - or against Israel, or Russia, or Indonesia


Islamic extremism. It's implying all Muslims are terrorists, only Muslims and it annoys the heck off the majority of ppl here Luke. Extremist of all forms and calls are interrelated. They have all the same things in common, to get attention. They do it by killing lives, or extreme violence. No sane person of any religion and even with the lack of it (unless you're a satan worshipper) condones such actions.


Saddam HAD WMD - the inspectors found TONS of the stuff back in the 90's.


yep. They didn't just get it off mass suppliers like Russia and Germany. During the Cold War, starting in the 1980's, Clinton himself (or whoever is the president then) generously gave out the weapons to Saddham and we're not talking simple conventional weapons. The big toys. The Brits supplied Saddham with 3000 tonnes of biochemical weapons, and that's why both Bush and Blair was cocksure of WMDs there and took a gamble.


the question is if they had any left.


Turned out there was nothing, and Bush's key advisors like Cheney etc are paying for it.

But I do not look at the Iraq war as being about WMD - I never really thought they had much.

It was more about creating change in the middle-east - WMD was just a pretext.


Here's one patriotic American who laps up the government garbage like no other. I may be third world but at least I know better than to trust politicians.

Wether you think it was right or wrong - I know a number of Iraqis who basically consider a better alternative to Saddam.

Yeah. I'm sure these people would also sell their souls to Satan. Saddham was a bloody tyrant, yeah, but it still doesn't give anyone any right to impose their will and ideals onto another. Sovereignity of a nation, and the right to self-determination. Iraq was attacked not because he was a tyrant, the principle goes like this; If USA was born because the Yankees decided the Brits (also of their own kin) was going too far, and they gained it themselves, should these people be left to liberate themselves? Saddham was a threat, simple as that, and leaders of US & England conspired to remove him after his usefulness was outlived.

Luke's patriotism is always met by my frustrated amusement. You think that America always acts through altruism, when any historian can tell you that NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, even the prophet himself (Allah I mean this not as an insult, but to point out human characteristic) acts when it comes to his or her nation, for altruism. It has always the seed of self-interest to it.

For example, the Guatanamo Bay issue wasn't simply about sodomization and pictures of sexually abused prisoners with the jailors having fun. There were tightly kept under wrap stories (the truth always leaks), like in one case, a prisoner's daughter was kidnapped, and gang-raped in front of the father so that he would talk. There are more, but I don't care to repeat it. You won't see more because well, won't the faith of the American public be even more shattered should more leak out?

Again, Luke. Consider that.

Oh, I highly agree with aymanel's statements. They're all very true. I highly recommend Kingdom of Heaven, the one with Orlando Bloom and Eric Bana in it. It's a better alternative than scanning the text for all 7 crusades, at least.

Oh, 3000 people in New York, and 100 000 civillians in Iraq & Afghanistan paid for it. Plus, there were the trade sanction which killed approximately 50 000 children during the 30 or so years of the sanction in Iraq before the war. They used cluster bombs and daisy clusters, innocent looking colourful thingies that explodes when touched by civillians who were trying to clean up their homes.


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Rana Lo.

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Re: Muslims are Terrorists??????
Nov 24, 2005

What about the violation of human rights in Guantanamo prisions?
Why do top US officers forbid any channel from interviewing or taking pictures of the prisioners there? My opinion: something fishy is definately going on. I wont be surprised to find out that they implemented the same torture methods from Nazi camps.

About terrosism everyone is blaming the other for their misery. ok, I totally condem all that killings happening whether Muslims or non -muslims. But that doesnt mean that its ok to be called a terrorist just because im a Muslim. There are two sides to every story & each one is insisting that his part is right & thats just silly.

Im still surprised to see some people who have been in TIG for a long time still stubborn & cling to their false misconceptions about others...and they call themselves open minded & flexiable duh!


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