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Olomu1
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Is It Religion Or Goodness?
November 3, 2005 - 05:37 AM
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A rear incident happened some thirty years ago while i was growing up in my community which was composed of veritable mixture of christians, muslims and idol worshippers.
An elderly man died at a very ripe age but the most surprising thing was that unlike his contemporaries who passed away before him, the muslims, christians and others rallied round to give him a befitting burial inspite of his non affiliation.
During his lifetime, he was never known to be a religious person but he exhibited good virtues in his relationship with the people. He was always in the company of the Ullamahs, Imams, Pastors, Reverend fathers and greatly but singularly contributed to the development of his community.
He cared greatly for his people and was loved in return by all for his generosity, simplicity of life, fairness and justice.
Quran states " Fear God in the truest sense of the word......and do not die except in a state of islam" while the Bible also states that " you must be born again inorder to see the kingdom of God"
But this man died not as a muslim, christian or traditionalist but as one who believed in the existence of one supreme being, the creator of the universe
Now my question is where was he headed, hell or paradise(Al-jannah)? Most people say his goodness would see him through to paradise this has therefore prompted me to ask this fundamental question. Which is more important, how religious, your affiliation or good virtues.
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KrIz+TeN
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Re: (untitled)
November 3, 2005 - 06:04 AM
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if he didn't ask christ to come in his life he won't go to heaven, doing good deeds doesn't send you to heaven, but the way you described him i think he might he made the decision at one point in his life
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Drbadr
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Re: (untitled)
November 3, 2005 - 07:16 AM
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AsslamouAlaikoum
you said that this man: "believed in the existence of one supreme being, the creator of the universe"
quraan said
[وَلاَ تُجَـدِلُواْ أَهْلَ الْكِتَـبِ إِلاَّ بِالَّتِى هِىَ أَحْسَنُ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُواْ مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُواْ ءَامَنَّا بِالَّذِى أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَـهُنَا وَإِلَـهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ]
translation:
(And argue not with the People of the Book, unless it be in (a way) that is better, except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah)') (29:46),
we all have the same creator and believers do not share with Allah any one
there are signs of good man when he is going to die
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Saladin
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Re: (untitled)
November 4, 2005 - 03:24 AM
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Originally posted by meg08
if he didn't ask christ to come in his life he won't go to heaven, doing good deeds doesn't send you to heaven, but the way you described him i think he might he made the decision at one point in his life
meg08,
you only say this because you're convinced with Christendom; and I say that only his alliegeance to Islam would enter him to paradise: In short, this type of traditional discussion won't establish any kind of common ground. Just leave God to decide who enters paradise and who doesn't, not us.
I always had in my mind four examples of people:
- People with no religious beliefs, who are not helping their community
- People with religious beliefs, who are not helping their community
- People with no religious beliefs, who are helping their community
- People with religious beliefs, who are helping their community
That's how I arrange them from most negative to most positive.
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Olomu1
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Is it religion or goodness
November 4, 2005 - 06:40 AM
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We further learnt that this man's non affiliation to any of the two major religions was as a result of the confusion that set in while trying to make a choice. He was told by both the muslim and christian preachers that he needed to accept their faith before he could make it to heaven. Thrilling and exciting as the religions were he got to take one and adhere to its doctrines.
Those of us who were born into a muslim/christian home may not understand what this meant because we did not make a choice of what religion to practise; our parents did that. We do not see anything bad or wrong about the religion our parents practised and introduced to us from infancy.
But this man had a problem he could not solve in his hands, he therefore resolved not to become an adherent of any of the religions since he was not certain which one was most acceptable to God. Also he vowed that rather than been 'coaxed' into taking a decision he would later regret in life, he would serve God and mankind not necessarily by been a muslim or christian and that was exactly what he did until he died.
This post was edited on: 2006-06-11 at 12:56 AM by: olomu1
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Olomu1
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Re: (untitled)
November 5, 2005 - 01:54 AM
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Are we not once again been faced with the problem encountered by the elderly man while he was trying to get actively religious?
Meg has just told us that without christ in ones' life there is no heaven while ayman stated that only your allegiance to islam will take you to paradise. So, which is which?
However i agree with my good friend ayman that the issue of who makes it to heaven should be left for God to decide. I also agree that religious belief without good virtues is vain therefore i feel people with no religious belief who are helping their community and people with religious belief who are helping their community are likely to find God's favor.
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Feyikemi
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Re: (untitled)
November 5, 2005 - 05:40 AM
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Religion is man-made. If you were a person who doesn't know anything about any religion but does not do evil things to people, does not hurt nature, and helps your fellowmen...is it right to say that you won't enter heaven? People who came before the conception of both Catholicism and Islam lived on their inherent knowledge of good vs bad, what then happened to them? And why always aspire to reach a "heaven" that is defined differently by religions and sects? Isn't working to make life on earth heaven for all mankind more noble? Most people are restricted to doing good because their religions tell them that there are bountiful rewards in heaven when they die. What becomes the motivation then? Do good for a reward. What ever happens to real sacrifice without hoping to gain something in return? I'm a Catholic. I don't do good for mankind because I want to reserve a place for myself in heaven. I do good for mankind because I want to share heaven on earth with everyone regardless of religion, race, or affiliation. I may not be a Catholic in 10, 20 years but I will not be abandoning helping people. When I die, I am only accountable to my God; not to my religion or what other people would want me to believe.
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Saladin
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Re: (untitled)
November 6, 2005 - 03:29 AM
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Zhac,
I agree with the "content" of your post; meaning that what matters most is good attitude and helping others. However, I have couple of comments.
"Religion is man-made"-I don't really believe in this, I don't think 22 % of the world's population -Muslims- believe that it is man-made.
"People who came before the conception of both Catholicism and Islam lived on their inherent knowledge of good vs bad, what then happened to them?"
I believe that apostles calling for the same message were sent to every group of people, every tribe and klan...Even people who did not recieve apostles, they will not "go to hell", that's just enough.
"Most people are restricted to doing good because their religions tell them that there are bountiful rewards in heaven when they die." Maybe that's true for "Seek only the Kingdom of God", but it's quite different in my faith.
Islam is a system that regulates all aspects of life-where spirituality is just one aspect-. It concentrates equally on prosperity in this life, as well as in the afterlife.It is necessary for a good Muslim to establish "'Imarat al-Ard" or "Development of the World". Ironically, most Muslims do not get those fundamentals.
To end, Olomu1 made a nice conclusion....
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Drbadr
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Re: (untitled)
November 6, 2005 - 05:42 AM
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Zahc said Religion is man-made
the main heavenly religions are from the only creator with the same good teaching and ethicks were distributed by Mosses, Jessus and completed by Mohammad (God pray be upon them all. All people re created as muslims then they belong to their families when grow.Allah will reward people for their good deeds ten folds. It does not mean that if i am muslim i will enter paradise because islam is not only by birth. Allah forgive any thing except shirk (sharing any one with him)
believers are from any heavenly religion and muslims mst believe in all prophets and their real bibles (from Allah and not modified)
[يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ ءَامِنُواْ بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَـبِ الَّذِى نَزَّلَ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَـبِ الَّذِى أَنَزلَ مِن قَبْلُ]
(O you who believe! Believe in Allah, and His Messenger, and the Book (the Qur'an) which He has revealed to the Messenger, and the Book which He sent own to those before (him)) (4:136)
[يَـأَيُّهَآ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ ءَامِنُواْ بِمَا نَزَّلْنَا مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ]
(O you who have been given the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad ) confirming what is (already) with you) (4:47), and,
[قُلْ يَـأَهْلَ الْكِتَـبِ لَسْتُمْ عَلَى شَىْءٍ حَتَّى تُقِيمُواْ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ]
(Say (O Muhammad ): "O People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing until you act according to the Tawrah (Torah), the Injil (Gospel), and what has (now) been revealed to you from your Lord (the Qur'an).'') (5:68).
[ءَامَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَـئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ]
(The Messenger (Muhammad ) believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) "We make no distinction between any of His Messengers'') (2: 285), and,
[وَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ بِاللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلَمْ يُفَرِّقُواْ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ]
(And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers and make no distinction between any of them (Messengers)) (4:152),
This is a sample of the Ayat (verses) that indicate that the true believers all believe in Allah, His Messengers and His Books.
didnt you see that the heavenly religions are from on God
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Olomu1
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Re: (untitled)
November 6, 2005 - 07:27 AM
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Both drbadr and zhac seemed to have agreed that it is basically not your religious belief that matters but more of the good virtues you are able to exhibit as God's creation.
drbadr stated that 'Allah will reward people for their good deeds ten times'. I would not know if this is a Quranic verse or whatever but it is indeed logical. It shows to confirm that God in His wisdom already knows His people are religious hypocrites and he wanted to impress it on them that the more you are able to put smiles into peoples faces and make the world a better place to live the greater your chance of making it to heaven and not your religious inclination.
Do you know how many people are been killed every other day in the name of religion, fathers disowning their children for accepting a new faith, homes breaking up just because wife and husband can no longer agree on religious belief, christians and muslims killing each other all in the name of religion. I guess most religions teach peace, tolerance, perseverance, etc so why are we deviating? Will it not have been better if we emphasized on the need to be good to ourselves, our families, neighbors, communities and state at large rather than vainly proclaiming our faith at any slight opportunity?
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Dereje Amera
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Religion is an instrument to develop goodness
November 9, 2005 - 10:29 AM
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This story reminded me to a story i heard before, and i want to correlate it with this particular issue.
At one point of time when TV was introduced, it was customary to put antenna on the roof of a house. In one town of the planet, people bought TV and place antenna on the top of the house. In that town, it was only one house which was leftout with out antenna, and anyone passes by that house, one can tell that it does not have TV. The children of that house faced bombardment of harrassment from other children, for the other children created psychological stress on these poor children. These poor children were somehow disappointed by the incapability of their parents to buy Tv and told to their parents the kind of the harrasment they had been thru becuase they donot have TV. At this point, the parents came up with an idea. They found amaterial in their house which looks like an antenna. They consulted with their children about their incapability and agreed, but decided to put the antenna like material on the top roof their house. By doing this they become successful, and they stopped the harrasment of their children, since anyone passes by their house, now, they start saying that they have TV. Then the children get relieved.
This story has a great deal to tell. Religion is like the antenna, where deeds are like TV. Many people bother about the antenna not the Tv, which can be deceiving conclusion. If one has both, it is fine. But If one can only have one, i prefer the Tv than the antenna...people are interested in the Form than the spirit..
Dereje
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Saladin
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Re: (untitled)
November 9, 2005 - 10:53 AM
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Luke, you hit the bull's eye..
Muhammad (s) once entered his mosque in Medina, and found a man praying the whole day-technically 24 hours-. He then asked his companions about this man, saying: "Who looks after him (financially)?", they replied: "His brother does", and then Muhammad (s) said: "His brother is better than him". Moreover, Islam does not encourage seclusion and monastycism.
Yes, it's not only about ceremonial acts, with complete neglect of worldly effort that aims at the welfare of the community.
Meg found that it is sufficient to repeat the word: "Jesus is my savior" to enter the paradise.
You found wisdom in marginalizing religious ceremonial actions, and focusing on "good deeds".
I thought that what is suitable for me, is to give equal treatment to both sides of the equation; and that's what Islam is all about...
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: (untitled)
November 9, 2005 - 12:01 PM
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Meg - what you said is very foolish indeed.
What is important is the way one lives their lives - goodness is in acts - not the blind following of any proscribed faith.
The idea that only by CONFORMING to YOUR religion can a person be a good person and worthy of God's love - is the kind of superstitious NONSENSE that drove me AWAY from Christianity.
It is narrowminded, dogmatic - and basically a tool of the Church to MANIPULATE people into CONFORMING.
I do not beleive the Creator could be so narrowminded - or he would not have created so many Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Bhuddists.
You see I was born to parents of Two religions - Judaism and Christianity - and I CHOSE to be a Jew.
I did so because of people like you - because if you need threats of hell and promises of heaven - in order to pursuade you to beleive a certain way - this makes you a small person - you beleive either out of FEAR of Hell - or because you are being BRIBED with Heaven.
Judiasm had none of this small mindedness - they simply have the wisedom of their beleifs - and let this wisedom speak for itself - the Wisedom is its own reward.
"doing good deeds doesn't send you to heaven" - Meg
Then it is not a place worth going to - and the God that does not consider Deeds but rather wants to be flattered and accepts lip service over actions - could not possibly have created the whole universe.
- I would rather be with people who do Mitzvah (good deeds) - then narrowminded sheep who bah "I love Jesus" over and over - then go about their immoral lives.
The measure of a man is in his deeds. Deeds require sacrifice, and effort, and they actually ACCOMPLISH GOOD.
Repeating dogma is easy and incipid.
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Marco
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Re: (untitled)
November 18, 2005 - 04:16 AM
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as the most of you are very openminded believers i feel encouraged to add my view on the question: DO GOOD and be religious or not. its nice to hear that the tendency in this discussion is to consider religious people and atheist the same, so only the deeds count. as an atheist (agnostic) i can meet you at this point with pleasure. only that im shifting to this point from the other direction, because as you might guess, personally i prefer critical theory of society and selforganisation of the people. this critical science thing is an atheist matter, but because we live in the same world the results of its reflections can correspond in several places with those of (critical) religious people like the most of you.
so i dont think the man from this community will enter heaven, but might have lived an interesting life full of love and died relieved and happy. i dont think there is something better than this humans can achieve in life.
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Drbadr
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Re: (untitled)
November 18, 2005 - 05:32 AM
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Good deeds and good treatment of others are very nice things in life to spread peace
Allah do not ask anyone to force other to belong to religion because he is the only who guide whohe loves even when our prophet wanted his uncle to became muslim Allah said to him the meaning : you can not guide whome you love but Allah guide whom he want
you have to say to people who dont know that they must worship the only creator who have no son , no wife because this is shirk or sharing others with God and this is the biggest fault and Allah will not forgive this but he forgive any other thing if you ask forgivness
people of the book know that and believe in monothism , and they know that our prophet is the last one as mentioned in their bibles with the name and characters that a priest know him when he was in a jurny from signs in the bible so no one can deney him as we all must believe in all previous prophets , angles, bibles (not modified) as he came to complete message from the same creator with the same rules and ethicks inviting people to love each other and live in peace with each other
so you can tell people that and they have minds to choose
other thing yes Allah reward good deed by ten folds and badf deed equal one. even good word is good deed. this is in the hearafter balance but good deeds is not only enter paradise but believing in monothism of Allah is important and there are believers before islam and after islam
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