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Nedal Zahran
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Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 24, 2002 - 04:20 AM
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I wont say much. This man was forced to strip naked and sit under the rain for hours by Israeli soldiers occupying Nablus, Palestine. This is the kind of treatment Palestinians usually get from Israeli Army.
How is this protecting Israel's security? Or isn't this incitement in itself to fight the occupation and bring an end to it?
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Nikisha Reyes-Grange
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tactics of war
November 25, 2002 - 02:33 AM
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My cousin spent time last year in the occupied territories, as a medic. On many occaisions, his ambulances were stopped by troops, who threatened them, pointed guns at them, and refused to let them take their patients to the hospital. Was this for Israeli security? Nope -- just to add to the suffering.
Humans do terrible things to one another during wars. It's easy to jump on Israel (and often justified), but let's not forget that our own countries have supported and helped the US bomb third world nations, and are about to move on another. What are we killing in the name of?
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I.M.
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Re: Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 25, 2002 - 03:51 AM
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Anatomy of Racism by Hanan Ashwari
www.mediamonitors.net/hanan1.html
An excellent article!
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Darren Houldcroft
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Re: Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 25, 2002 - 08:42 AM
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I this particular case, I see nothing to suggest what you say happened, thus I play the devil's advocate. There is a man naked, to be sure - but no soldiers in sight, no apparent injuries.....
Perhaps I am too much of a cynic.
As for the ambulances - it all stems from the PLA's use of them in the past to shuttle troops and explosives (all UN verified). It may not be happening now, but the fact it happened in the past explains the (somewhat excessive) stance taken by Israel on many occasions to these vehicles.
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Darren Houldcroft
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Re: Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 25, 2002 - 09:05 AM
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Please do not take offense at this, but without knowing the circumstances I can only assume they had a good reason. There is certainly nothing to be gained from humiliating a man in front of the press uneccesarily, especially considering their recent PR-shyness....
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I.M.
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Re: Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 25, 2002 - 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by Jingles
Please do not take offense at this, but without knowing the circumstances I can only assume they had a good reason. There is certainly nothing to be gained from humiliating a man in front of the press uneccesarily, especially considering their recent PR-shyness....
Humiliation has been used by the Israeli Army as a means of pressure and punishment. It's not surprising, this tactic is often used by oppressors to reinforce their position of power over the helpless. It's degrading, hurtful, and terroristic!
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Jordan
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zionist propoganda?
November 26, 2002 - 02:50 AM
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so nedalz the claims that: 1)Wafaa Idris, a Palestinian Red Crescent employee, was sent on a terrorist mission and committed a suicide bombing in Jaffa Road in Jerusalem
2)the adverse use of the identification vests of the Palestinian Red Crescent by distributing them to rioters, after the erection of a road block and the burning of tires against the IDF, in one of the Palestinian roadblocks in Samaria.
3)On March 27, 2002 IDF soldiers detained an ambulance driver working for the Palestinian Red Crescent close to the Rama Bridge south of Ramallah, who was smuggling an explosives belt and other explosive charges in his ambulance. The belt and charges were hidden under a stretcher on which a Palestinian sick child lay. The employee admitted that he was smuggling the charges in order to transfer them to Tanzim activists in the Ramallah region
these are all propoganda and hold no truth?
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Nedal Zahran
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Re: Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 26, 2002 - 03:40 AM
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JC, are we talking about individual events? do u want me to mention the 1978 cases where the Israeli occuaption army commited 'mistakes'/crimes against civilians? (ofcourse these are the crimes that led to DEATH- not to mention injury destruction of homes, restiction of movement, closure of schools, PUBLIC HUMILIATION etc... (the list goes on...)
wafa' was a RC volunteer, who went on her mission on an individual basis, and did NOT use her privilages (if she has any) to get to her destination.
I was usually there whenever demonstartions turned in stone throwing, My ex-girlfriend was a volunteer for a medical releif organisation, They used to make stone throwers stop throwing stones whenever they go to pick up a casualty. So that they wont be considered as involve in the clashes. I never sow what you talked about happening.. but I saw how the Army responded to stone throwers by live bullets killing many of them.
AH! I have heard of what you say happened on the 27/3/2002. The red crescent issued a statment condemning this and confirming this is against their policy, of not being a party in a conflict.
and PLEASE stop using IDF.IL and Israeli Foreign Ministry as your refrences, these are so biased.
Can you please, JC, tell me what would you think about this picture?
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Nedal Zahran
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twisting words
November 26, 2002 - 03:46 AM
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JC, wait a minute- when did I mention anything about wafa' Idris? stop twisting my words, it is annoying to respond to something so childish! We can hold very interesting discussions. Not this way though.
And, are we talking about individual events? do u want me to mention the 1978 cases where the Israeli occuaption army commited 'mistakes'/crimes against civilians? (ofcourse these are the crimes that led to DEATH- not to mention injury destruction of homes, restiction of movement, closure of schools, PUBLIC HUMILIATION etc... (the list goes on...)
wafa' was a RC volunteer, who went on her mission on an individual basis, and did NOT use her privilages (if she has any) to get to her destination.
I was usually there whenever demonstartions turned in stone throwing, My ex-girlfriend was a volunteer for a medical releif organisation, They used to make stone throwers stop throwing stones whenever they go to pick up a casualty. So that they wont be considered as involve in the clashes. I never sow what you talked about happening.. but I saw how the Army responded to stone throwers by live bullets killing many of them.
AH! I have heard of what you say happened on the 27/3/2002. The red crescent issued a statment condemning this and confirming this is against their policy, of not being a party in a conflict.
and PLEASE stop using IDF.IL and Israeli Foreign Ministry as your refrences, these are so biased.
Can you please, JC, tell me what would you think about this picture?
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Jordan
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Re: Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 26, 2002 - 03:59 AM
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I think the same as you when I see the picture. I don't think what they did there was right, I mean obviously I would like to hear both sides of the story but I don't know how they would be able to justify this one.
Now as for the stuff about the red crescent.....I brought the point about wafa up because it shows that the people volunteering for the red crescent are ordinary people, and not necessarily impartial. If she was willing to go and blow herself up why would she not use Red crescent ambulances to further her cause. Now I am not saying that everyone in the Red Crescent is like her....or even that most are...what I am saying is Israel has a legitimate right to be wary of Red crescent ambulance....now I recognize that as you said the Red Crescent issued a statement in response to the incident on 27/3/2002 but I am wondering what efforts they make to prevent this sort of thing from happening.
and....I didn't use the IDF.IL page...it was something similar
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Darren Houldcroft
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Re: Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 26, 2002 - 06:08 AM
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JC covered the ambulance point, and I see no point to rehash it - suffice to say I would not say it had been UN verified if I wasn't sure of that fact.
You also slate us for using Israeli sources (which, considering I quoted no sources, strikes me as a bit of a low hit) yet base your own views on Paestinian press reports. I think it'd be best if you don't throw stones in a glass house, ok?
That said (and without desire for further confrontation) I will clarify my statements:
1) Yes, I can clearly see the APC's in view - However, I said I could not see soldiers. And I cannot.
2) I can think of many reasons to humilate people, so there is no need for the sarcasm. I can't think of one Israeli officer who would however be stupid enough to do this in public without a damned good reason. They are very concious of the press.
3) I think it is also worth noting that despite the fact I am a devil's advocate (on occasion) it doesn't make me a devil. I no more support the Israelis than I do the cause of the suicide bombers.
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Darren Houldcroft
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Re: Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 26, 2002 - 06:14 AM
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In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if the roles were reversed I'd expect to see the exact same situation. Both sides are using the tools available to them to forward their agenda - should the PLA be given access to american F-16's and armoured vehicles whilst the Israeli's were forced to use human's as walking bombs....
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Mike
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well.
November 26, 2002 - 09:10 AM
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No Israeli soldier leaves their tank unattended. Too much of a risk. So its quite clear the soldiers are either hiding from the press our in the tank or just not in the shot.
So there goes that argument.
There is no point to trying to justify something so cruel. You cant. Whether he was ordered to be naked for a minute or for a day - it is meaningless.
What kind of cruel mindset do these soldiers have? How does that help their cause? Why are they blatantly occupying non-israeli towns?
Seeing such things makes you think about why you should keep living. Maybe that's where it all comes from.
Dammit. It all has to end now.
- - -
Pred.
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Simon Charles
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Re: Israel, and Humiliation of Palestinians
November 26, 2002 - 10:49 AM
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You know what? It's all good to say that Israelis have no right to be in the occupied territory. But quite frankly, what choice do they have? Seriously, they move out, they got a suicide bomb. They move in to try to stop the violence, and they get stoned and more suicide bombers. Truly, they are stuck right in the middle of the soup. They cannot do anything that will lead to something positive.
And let's also think of one other thing. Do you really think that those soldiers in those tanks haven't lost a family member/fellow soldier to the intifada? Really, EVERYONE's lost friends/family in this war. They have just as much right to be pissed at any old Palestinian as the Palestinian suicide bombers have to be pissed at the occupation forces.
There are reasons to why things happen, all you have to do is lift the blinders placed upon you by the society that you live in.
That said. Soldiers should have more respect for civilians than to do this. But you know what? This isn't a normal war, and these soldiers aren't fighting a 'normal' enemy that's going to attack them face to face. Who knows, I can understand why they might make him strip to underpants (could've been carrying an explosive belt or explosives wrapped around his shins), but any more than that I don't know. That's just where the personal anger takes over.
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Nedal Zahran
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reasons for the unreasonable.
November 26, 2002 - 12:48 PM
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What reasons could exist for forcing someone to strip naked?
I can't think of any, and am sure none exist. After living in Palestine for the whole duration of this Intifada, I think what happened is as follows.
The man lives in Nablus (fact), a city which has been under continuous 24 hours curfew since June 19th 2002 (fact), The curfew is occasionally lifted once or twice a week for few hours (fact). Since last week Nablus was under continuos curfew, and the man probably went down in defiance of the curfew to try to get food for his family after he ran out of supplies (I assume). The soldiers (for the person who said he saw no soldiers- Look at the two armoured personnel carriers this is where the soldiers are.) stopped the person and asked him to strip. originally he refused to take off his underware (fact- from the local newspapers) They pointed their guns at him, and threatened to kill him (fact). Then the decided they wanted more fun (I assume)so they forced him to immitate voices of animals (fact) of course, jingle, you wont beleive this because you can here voice comming out of the picture.(keep playing the devil's advocate- the man could still be an exhibitionist! But after all, the devil is a devil)
Yeah and before I forget. Ambulances. Jingles, The only sources that said so are israeli sources. It was NEVER (fact) supported by any International organisation Not UN not AI not a single organisation. Jingles, have you ever seen ambulance drivers being killed. diliberately? by snipers? Come to Palestine.
All I am trying to say is that our aims here are very simple, and tiny, nothing like yours if you live in peaceful place. All we dream of is a decent life, is it hard to ask for this on such a planet. In addition to what nikisha said, all countries are involved. Israel is just one.
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