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-SB- Shobuz Bhai
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Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 25, 2005 - 03:40 AM
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Women in Islam
The answer is different when it comes to God compared with traditional Islam. Every Westerner thinks that Islam is very chauvinistic and oppressive towards women. In Islam of today as practiced by most traditional sectarian Muslims, this is very true. However, in true Islam (Submission), as revealed in the Quran, nothing could be farther from the truth.
God treats men and women as spiritual equals., Quran 3:195 tells us :
"Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER........."
Many of the Muslim countries who claim to follow Islam are treating women as a second class citizens, and some of these women accepted this situation thinking that is what Islam (Submission in English) is advocating. As mentioned previously, God, in the Quran made a complete spiritual equality between men and women, See 3:195.
Most of the degrading, humiliation and poor treatment in these Muslim Countries for women, came from the desertion of the Quran , and refusal of the word of God in favor of some fabrications written in Hadith books that put women on the same level with animals, monkeys , asses or dogs.
The total respect and rights guaranteed by God for the Muslim women can not be taken away by a lie written in another man-made book. While God made men and women spiritually equal as seen in 3:195 the traditional Muslims who prefer Hadith over Quran always remind the women of this alleged Hadith:
"Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective". (Bukhary).
That is what Bukhary writes not what God says, not what the prophet who represents the message of God could have said, since this statement is totally against the Quran. Because women usually do not have the physical strength of man, hadithists see them as "naturally defective". They forget that women have other natural qualities in which they are superior to men, like their ability to endure pain, the ability to bear children, etc.
Hadithists see women as "morally defective", conveniently ignoring the fact that the vast majority of individuals jailed for murder, rape, child abuse, etc. are men. And hadithists claim that women are "religiously defective" but it is they (not God in the Quran) who forbid their daughters from praying and fasting during their menstrual periods and it is they (not God) who discourage the women from going to the mosque, even for Friday prayers.
Their problem is that they have taken the words of men instead of the words of God. After making it all but impossible for a woman to practice her religion for about 25% of her life (the amount of time most women have their periods), is it any wonder that hadithists claim that the majority of people in Hell are women????!
However what God revealed in the Quran is very different. The spiritual equality between men and women is reiterated in 4:124, as follows:
"As for those who lead a righteous life, MALE OR FEMALE. while believing, t hey enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice"
and again in 16:97:
" Anyone who works righteousness, MALE OR FEMALE, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense for their righteous works."
and yet again in 40:40,
[40:40] Whoever commits a sin is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness - MALE OR FEMALE - while believing, these will enter Paradise wherein they receive provisions without any limits.
It is time to go back to the Quran, and believe God, before a day comes when the messenger will complain to God, that the Muslims deserted the Quran, 25:30
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Desert ROSE
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 26, 2005 - 01:48 AM
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nice, i've tried to make this point clear (to seperate religion from traditions) in many of my posts so it's good to talk about it again because alot have wrong thoughts (alot westerns) about Islam and women in Islam ,countries nowadays aren't following the rules of Islam that's why alot of women lost their rights but at first if you want to have your rights ,the rights that no one can forbidden you from having you should know yyour rights and this is a point that most of women nowadays have missed !!
The most thing i'm proud of is being a muslim girl
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Sarah
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 26, 2005 - 09:55 AM
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Differentiating Religion from Tradition is the first step of understanding any culture or religion. Many have a hard time distinguishing the two which results in much delusion. Showbuz, Mohammed and Batoola have done a fine job of enlightening others of the common misconceptions of women in Islam. All I have to add is that I am so satisfied and content to be part of the Islamic community and following this wonderful life style. Am treated like a precious jewel. I have rights that were given to all women. Key word 'given.' We didn’t have to fight for the freedom and ease we have. They are all orders from God to provide and comfort us. If anyone accuses Islam as being a religion where women are caged, oppressed, beaten and having to conform to whatever ideals men pose onto them, then I advise them to do further research before making such hasty, impulsive, ignorant allegations. There is a major difference between Islam and what people say Islam is. And we Muslim women can speak for ourselves. None would know how our lives are except for us. Most outside the Islamic community wouldn’t have a clue what Islam is all about. And we are not fools.
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Dr.M.Mukhtar Alam
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Great
September 26, 2005 - 10:48 AM
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The whole argument based on patriarchy is based on atheistic and polytheistic understanding of the commands.Islam is about sumission to the commands of Allah that are equal for both men and women. There are some differences that relate to biological facts
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heba
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 29, 2005 - 02:35 AM
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islam gives the women a big important role in the life but the big mistakes that most of the women themselves gave up of this role which gave the opportunity to limit her presence .at first as you said women should know the rights they are given by God and to have the power to be distinguish again after all of these years of disappering .
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Debbie
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 29, 2005 - 03:08 AM
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Agreeably so, culture and religious teachings can differ greatly especially after much evolution over time. Even the Bible is claimed to be sexist in much of its parables and teachings. I would think therefore, that understandings of Islam, Christianity, or any other religion have been severely perverted by other cultural/social movements that have occurred in the past. It is nice to see people stepping forward to defend this and what I feel is most important, is to make sure that everyone manages to attain awareness with regards to religious issues bearing in mind their high sensitivity.
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Saladin
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 29, 2005 - 04:33 AM
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[i]
"Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective". (Bukhary).
That is what Bukhary writes not what God says, not what the prophet who represents the message of God could have said, since this statement is totally against the Quran. Because women usually do not have the physical strength of man, hadithists see them as "naturally defective". They forget that women have other natural qualities in which they are superior to men, like their ability to endure pain, the ability to bear children, etc. [/B]
Dear brother Shobuz,
you have considered the most extremist interpretation of the hadith: "Naqisatu 'aqlen wa deen" ... which you translated as "mentally and religiously defective".
Yes, most traditional orthodox Muslims consider this interpretation of the Hadith; but others don't. They interpret it in the light of two basic things:
1) Prophet Muhammad (s) would have never insulted women. In Arabic the sentence "Naqisatu 'aqlen wa deen", which is offensively interpreted as "mentally and religiously defective" can be seen in a completely enlightened perspective:
Allah created men as men, and women as women; equal but not identical. Men have more muscular power than women, and women have more emotional power than men; men have relatively more "'aql" -the word mentioned in the Hadith- which I personally see as the ability to put aside emotions when taking decisions-, and this is not also a general rule; some women have this abiliy better than many men. "Naqisatu deen", which is seen offensively as "religiously defective", I see it no more than a "prophetic" humour, referring to several religious duties women are exempted from; such as congregational praying, flexible fasting regulations, and so on...
2) The situation in which this particular narration is believed to be said was when some women acted improperly in public...and in no way this narration can be taken as a general judgment of women.
Last, I would like to add that the Sunnah- as long as proven to be certain, and not contradicting the Quran- is an essential part of Islam; and the undermining of the Sunnah is a dangerous attempt that might have serious consequences.
Remeber; the three everlasting sources of Islam are the Qur'an, the Sunnah, and the Ijtihad or "Renewal".
The healthy thing about this discussion, is that I see it as a kind of "renewal".
Peace
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Marco
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 29, 2005 - 04:59 AM
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let me refer to roulette first, because im neither islamic nor christian, but atheist: I like this discussion and consider it as a progressive step towards human emancipation (which is my first target). although atheist ill try to be respectfull and sensitive towards your religious background...
especially the point of seperating religion and culture seem to be very wise, though even the most atheists cant do this operation in their minds. but there is something to keep in mind: interpreting the words of the quran is always an individual AND a collective action. as an individual action the interpretation might be seperable from culture, because it needs more than one person to form cultural phenomena... as a collective INTERaction this process IS a cultural (or traditional) process. all the advice from quran effect cultural issues utterly.
at last i want to add my perspective on the MEN an WOMEN issue: Men and Women SHOULD be treated equal, wether its written somewhere or not. Simply because any reason for Men ruling over Women seem to be very foolish, ignorant, disrespectful, egocentric and other awfull things...
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Saladin
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 29, 2005 - 05:17 AM
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Originally posted by Fuchs
Men and Women SHOULD be treated equal, wether its written somewhere or not
Fuchs,
I believe it's more important if it's written "somewhere";
when pepole "believe" that men and women are equal before the Divine, and willingly follow a "religious belief" that "obliges" them morally to apply those values; it will be a wholly different situation than having lots of people not believing in some human-written codes; and who just apply it out of fear from whtaever human authority.
Just see how different was the situation in Indonesia after the Tsunami, from the similar situation in New Orleans after Katrina: In Indonesia, Islam obliged people to respect the dead, not to steal, and not to rape women...while in Louisiana, -which is by far wealthier than Indonesia, and where many people don't really take religion seriously- didn't find any problem in raping, and stealing.
The point is : It matters really if it's written "somewhere" people believe in, than to be written "somewhere else".
peace
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Rana Lo.
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 29, 2005 - 07:39 AM
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To "aymanelhakea" i agree with what u said & i think the comparison between Indonesia & USA made the point clear.
So far i agree with what u all have posted but i only see one post from Fuchs (who isnt a Muslim) what about the rest? For example it was strange not seeing a post from Luke,i kinda got used to read his posts in every discussion!
Anyway TIG is a great oppertunity to know/ask ppl about their religions,cultures/traditions...etc ppl should assumptions aside if they can get the truth from the right ppl.
p.s im not gonna say that im proud to be a female Muslim cuz i've done that before 
Take care
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Debbie
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 29, 2005 - 08:09 AM
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Agreed that the distinction between tradition and religious teachings is extremely hard to do given the circumstances that we live in, where the distinction itself has already been obscured with countless associations to other things. Wished I could give an example, but unfortunately, I don't think I'm that qualified to do so.
Nevertheless, I think a lot of the problems that we have regarding interpretations of religion stems from ignorance and disclarity. I believe most people fail to question whatever assumptions they have, and this has led and can lead to full blown conflicts.
Regarding the gender disparity issue however, it is natural to ascertain the fact that both genders are equal. But at the same time, I think there should be a general acceptance that the individual gender is better at doing some things better than the other and vice versa. However, that's simply a personal view that each gender has its own strengths and weaknesses, because I do think certain overly active feminists are generally unrealistic and self-opinionated in their views. Ultimately however, I do believe that males and females should be treated equally.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 30, 2005 - 06:00 AM
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"it will be a wholly different situation than having lots of people not believing in some human-written codes; and who just apply it out of fear from whtaever human authority." - Ayman
I fundamentally disagree. I do not think religious orthodoxy should determine ethics.
I think the deepest reolizations are those which you come to YOURSELF - not Authoritarian in nature.
the 10 Commandments - we can all agree are ethical, but is that really why people should "not kill" - because a stone tablet supposedly written by the hand of God - tells us to.
or because there is an ethical logic, and it has to do with Weakness and Strength, Courage and Cowardess.
I think MOST of us know what the "right" moral judgement is in any given circumstance - it is really a matter of having the strength and courage to do what is right.
To be honest and have integrity - or to fall prey to our own desires through weakness.
Aristotle wrote 2500 years ago in his "Ethics" a brilliant logical reasoning for ethical behavior.
My point is that while all the spiritual texts teach ethics, and have great wisdom - Morals should rest on real logic that does not depend on "because God said so" as to where it rests its case.
If there is no Good Reason for a 'rule' beyond that it is written somewhere - then it has outlived its tenure.
I think what Fuchs is saying is that Men and Women are distinctly different, but ultimately equal entities -
any religious interpretation which does not understand that fundamental reality - be it an interpretation of Christianity, Judaism or Islam - is incorrect.
It is essentially unethical do value one "type" of person over another.
a bedrock principal of montheism is that we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord.
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Desert ROSE
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
September 30, 2005 - 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by aymanelhakea
[QUOTE][i]
"Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective". (Bukhary).
That is what Bukhary writes not what God says, not what the prophet who represents the message of God could have said, since this statement is totally against the Quran. Because women usually do not have the physical strength of man, hadithists see them as "naturally defective". They forget that women have other natural qualities in which they are superior to men, like their ability to endure pain, the ability to bear children, etc.
Dear brother Shobuz,
you have considered the most extremist interpretation of the hadith: "Naqisatu 'aqlen wa deen" ... which you translated as "mentally and religiously defective".
Yes, most traditional orthodox Muslims consider this interpretation of the Hadith; but others don't. They interpret it in the light of two basic things:
1) Prophet Muhammad (s) would have never insulted women. In Arabic the sentence "Naqisatu 'aqlen wa deen", which is offensively interpreted as "mentally and religiously defective" can be seen in a completely enlightened perspective:
Allah created men as men, and women as women; equal but not identical. Men have more muscular power than women, and women have more emotional power than men; men have relatively more "'aql" -the word mentioned in the Hadith- which I personally see as the ability to put aside emotions when taking decisions-, and this is not also a general rule; some women have this abiliy better than many men. "Naqisatu deen", which is seen offensively as "religiously defective", I see it no more than a "prophetic" humour, referring to several religious duties women are exempted from; such as congregational praying, flexible fasting regulations, and so on...
2) The situation in which this particular narration is believed to be said was when some women acted improperly in public...and in no way this narration can be taken as a general judgment of women.
Last, I would like to add that the Sunnah- as long as proven to be certain, and not contradicting the Quran- is an essential part of Islam; and the undermining of the Sunnah is a dangerous attempt that might have serious consequences.
Remeber; the three everlasting sources of Islam are the Qur'an, the Sunnah, and the Ijtihad or "Renewal".
The healthy thing about this discussion, is that I see it as a kind of "renewal".
Peace[/B][/QUOTE]
I knew that i've missed something in this discussion about what shobuz wrote but i didn't really get the point of it but after i read aymanelhakea post i got it so thanks
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Peculiar
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
October 4, 2005 - 02:47 AM
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Originally posted by Bitsy
The fact is, God gave each human being a conscience and it is upsetting to hear people saying things like, people are not stealing or raping because the Qura'an or the Bible tells them not to. That is no sincere reason to refrain from doing wrong things to others. The reason to refrain from doing wrong things to others does not even require a belief in God. God has given all people a conscience, whether or not the person believes in God. If a person is refraining from wrong-doing because of something someone else or words in a book is imposing on him, then instead let him be free to do all the evil he wishes, so that we can see him in his true light, without the shield of morality from a holy book.
I really want to suppot this above quote but I will also like to ask if all people is having conscience. If yes, why I will cheating ourselves without feeling quity?
Come back to the main issue, we are the same before God and we should stop oppresing our fellow human being in the name of Submissive.
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Lilian MOUYAGA
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Re: Are MEN and WOMEN equal in God's judgment ?
October 4, 2005 - 03:46 AM
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the question is very thorny, because place that the réligion(whatever it is) always grants to the woman souléve surging debates! However, the Moslem réligion appears as that which grants less possible freedom to the female gente and is thus to be that which is fustigated! For my part, I would carry a glance on on the equality, and that by melting me on the Christian réligion! Indeed, in the Bible (the Holy Bible), one can read there that the woman was drawn from the coast of the man, in other words it seems a by-product, the man being the standard product (forgive me Mesdames). But God, by making the woman did not establish that it would be demblé the footboard of the man, but rather a help for him, an assistance, one second hand, a shoulder... and all what goes in this direction! Now, as regards the equality between the man and the woman (famous emancipation of the woman), that the things are clear: IT There A NO EGALIT2 WHICH HOLDS BETWEEN The TWO BEINGS! the woman is and will remain a help for the man, certs not a slave, but a help of which it cannot occur! As for the EC what thinks Islam... allez to me of explaining it, you who know an end of it about the subject!
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