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Saladin
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 25, 2005 - 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Bitsy
[QUOTE][i] Actually, I have little personal experience of Muslims who practice Islam in the rigid way I might have been thinking of, but I have been listening to other people who give me the impression that somewhere out there, there is a mass of Muslims very rigidly practicing Islam - usually, I have been told, in Iran and Saudi Arabia, for example. So far, a lot of the Muslims I have gotten acquainted with adhere to Islam less than I do, and I haven't even known anything about it. However, people like my brother warn me severely about getting involved with Muslim men, in particular, and dismiss my experiences of "liberal" Muslims as being without credibility.
Bitsy,
I'm sorry to say this, but I really find this argument going deep into stereotyping. With all my respect to your brother, but saying that all Muslims are "without credibility" is an Islamophobic prejudice.
In KSA and Iran, although the governments call themselves "Islamic", that doesn't mean that they are so.
Hereditary monarchies essentially contradict the principle of choosing the ruler by "Shura" or "Consensus" as stated in the Qur'an.
Some states use religion as a way to gain legitimacy from the easily-driven ignorant masses. That's basically not the religion's fault.
To how many Muslim countries have you been before? Only Tunisia? I live in Egypt, and I have been to Tunisia, Morocco, Syria, Turkey, and Lebanon. My mother used to live in Libya, my father has been to KSA and Sudan, my two cousins one of them works in the UAE, the other works in the KSA, alos, my two uncles; one works in Iran, and the other used to work in Yemen....we always sit and speak about issues like the one we're discussing now...
Just tell me out of how many Muslim countries is Islam taken in an "extremist" way? KSA, Iran, Sudan...? Where else? What about Turkey, Tunisia, and Morocco...they're Muslim countries too...but basically Islam is even marginalized from worldly life. While some women protest against wearing the scarf in Iran, lots of women protest for their right to wear scarves in government establishments in Turkey. Generalizations always give a distorted picture.
Muslims constitute 22 % of the world's population...how much are KSA and Iran from this population? And guess what, my uncle who works in Teheran, and my cousin who works in Riyadh assure to me that even in both countries, people exhibit several hidden forms of corrupt behavior....even under so-called Islamic governments, lots of people still even don't follow the basics of Islam -secretely-.
The irony appears in secular countries with Muslim majority, like Turkey, where the vast majority of people are very religious, while the government is extremely secular.
There's no doubt about the "identity crisis" taking place in the Muslim world today.
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Lucia
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 26, 2005 - 04:02 AM
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Originally posted by aymanelhakea
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bitsy
[B][QUOTE][i] Actually, I have little personal experience of Muslims who practice Islam in the rigid way I might have been thinking of, but I have been listening to other people who give me the impression that somewhere out there, there is a mass of Muslims very rigidly practicing Islam - usually, I have been told, in Iran and Saudi Arabia, for example. So far, a lot of the Muslims I have gotten acquainted with adhere to Islam less than I do, and I haven't even known anything about it. However, people like my brother warn me severely about getting involved with Muslim men, in particular, and dismiss my experiences of "liberal" Muslims as being without credibility.
Bitsy,
I'm sorry to say this, but I really find this argument going deep into stereotyping. With all my respect to your brother, but saying that all Muslims are "without credibility" is an Islamophobic prejudice.
To how many Muslim countries have you been before? Only Tunisia? [/B][/QUOTE]
First of all, thanks, Fuchs, for restoring the original thread title - I didn't know if we were on subject, since I didn't even know the title (I read recently in a thread that they had fixed the problem of the changing thread titles). I will try to find things on the Internet, but at this time I am only aware of books - the days I was exploring this subject were pre-Internet days.
Secondly - aymanelhakea , sorry, I didn't make myself understood. I disagree with my brother and when I have tried to tell him about my personal experience of Muslims, he dismisses me (and my experiences) like I am an inexperienced fool and it is I and my experiences which have no credibility whatsoever with him. I rarely want to argue with him, as it is detrimental to me, so I mostly just don't talk about it. Despite the fact that he has studied the Qura'an, Islam and Arabic in Egypt and he has a close business partner and friend in and from Saudi Arabia and goes there relatively often, I know what I have experienced, I know what I have felt from the Muslims I have been in contact with and I think that, because the information I give him is from me specifically, he will not believe it, even in the face of facts, like the one that the hijab is banned in Tunisia, which he didn't even know.
Having said that, it is exactly right that what my brother has been trying to drill into my head about Muslims is extremely stereotypical and he has stressed to me, in the face of my attempts to tell him about my experiences that show his opinion is too narrow, and even wrong, that all Muslims and Muslim societies are rigidly the same.
Sorry for the digression and hope you understand me better now.
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Marco
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 26, 2005 - 09:04 AM
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yes zhac: i tried to get in a discussion with relegious people about how to deal with the diversing interpretations of any kind of something. to discuss, what it means to believe, seemed a kind of key problem ...
concerning competition: i explicitly said, that competition itself is not the problem. competition will ever exist, because individuals will try out while their growing up and will find some fun in it in any society i can imagine, because what options of BASIC social relations we have? Making ONE and dividing, or cooperation and competition (ok, theres ignorance, too, in this level). my point was, that competition is not the proper option for economical and political affairs, or lets say for all serious matters in this world, because in this serious matters GAMES are causing more problems. competition makes GAMES. GAMES need coincidance. do you think we ll need coincidance to solve our problems? i do not. we need to be wise and solidary. i think LIFE should be no game, because in games e FEW are winning and the rest gets nothing, as we have the world today. lets PLAY GAMES for fun, not for life!
exploitation means somebody is using his power (money, knowledge, connections, followers) to press LIFE out of others. LIFE means here lifetime and any kind of physical or other efforts. the employed sell their time, because they have no choice (a minority even like it, however). they sell their lifetime, ability and strength to someone, who has the machines and stuff (capital). the money they get is supposed to be at the minimum level to provide the living and reproduction of her/his ability to work. in the postfordian capitalism their was a mass of well paid workers in the high industrialised regions. the phenomenom is disapearing since some time, so we can see very clear: THE PAYMENT shows, what the employee is good for: A) increasing profits through working more and getting less. B) protecting, controlling or advocating the profit-machine. those advocates (politicians, scientists, professors) and managers and higher military Men get wages beyond imagination. the more they have to loose, the better they ll provide, what they are supposed to provide.
oppression? people very often believe humans cannot live without hierarchy. i agree then and add the following: BUT theres a kind of hierarchy which is no oppression. when an old person force a small child to stay back from the busy highway it may be a kind of oppression in that moment, but we would rather call it >life-saving< id say. oppression is a system of force, a concentration of power, leaving the rest help- and meaningless. oppression is violance and sufferation. its A cause for war and dieing and many stupid things. the reason why these violant hierarchies are so dominant in this world is clear: ITS VERY EFFECTIVE, especially when competition is the basic social structure. i could live with less effective structures if only exploitation and oppression would end... the difficult thing (to understand) about oppression today that there is a strong tendency to shift the oppressive structure INTO the people (individuals). michel focault wrote delightning books on this topic! but especially this tendency of INTERNALIZATION bears THE GREAT CHANCE, too. the self-aware and empowered world-citizen, who decides to live for love and solidarity and joins the struggle for it.
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Feyikemi
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EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 26, 2005 - 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Fuchs
please, everybody, stop anywhere else. open up and join the open minded network struggling for a world without exploitation and oppression.
Hi Fuchs! I think everyone would agree that it would be best for you to give your definition of "exploitation" and "oppression" so we would know exactly where you're coming from. From the posts, it's really hard to point out the bone of contention of the thread because there are indications that this could be a religious discussion. Anyway, if I get you right, I believe that you are primarily pointing at the idea that people should be open-minded about things so that equality among men can be achieved. That's why maybe, posts pitting Islam and Christianity against each other have surfaced because the differences between these religions restrict one's definition of equality or equity. Personally, I'm left-leaning and I also abhor the practice of modern slavery through capitalism. But I'm also one who works on making good out of bad situations instead of drastically re-inventing the wheel. So when you mention that you aren't in favor of [/B]the social function of competition being the main concept of production and reproduction, of division and consuming[/B] because it is a sickness, I beg to disagree. Competition is as innate in human beings as breathing is. We have been competing with elements ever since we were born. This makes competing not always bad, ergo, the term "healthy competition" which brings about improvement in all people in almost every aspect such as intellectual, emotional, etc. My point is not to get rid of competition but to come up with fair and even playing field. So what happens when we level the playing field? We come up with labor laws, work ethics, and equal opportunity. I believe that EQUALITY among races, religions or beliefs is the highest human achievement we could work for but when all is said and done, it's just not feasible at a time where a new generation of imperialists is emerging from the US and China. What we can do right now (at least for people like us who believe in equality) is to make the best of the situation by setting aside differences and being open-minded. Then, we can achieve a certain degree of equality albeit confined in a small portion of the huge universe we call "ourselves".
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Saladin
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 29, 2005 - 06:28 AM
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Bitsy,
thank you for your last post -I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.
I only want to make a comment, that I do not feel ashamed that Islam orders women to wear hijab. I'm not stating that hijab is banned in Tunisia's government facilities because I'm trying to defend Islam -as not persecuting women-. I do not believe that hijab undermines women. I totally disagree with banning personal freedoms, whether in France, Turkey, or Tunisia...I think all people here agree with me in this respect.
Fuchs,
How can I be -distant from others- while my FAITH learns me that all humans have ONE ancestral origin: Adam and Eve ? I consider everyone here to be my brothers and sisters- my faith learns me this. If you think that no faith is needed to confirm such human brotherhood, at least Islam preceded the UDHR by 1400 years in this respect...right?
Again...if you think that my own way of thinking -is not what we need to save the world-, then I should tell you that this statment is pretty ambiguous.
It shows some positive side: you want to save the world -I like that! But, you don't think the way I'm thinking would help....because it "rests on probably uncertain, old ideas".
Bro, we CANNOT put aside what our ancestors thought/did/made/came up with/etc...from our lives.
We have a proverb saying: "He who abandons his past, gets lost". We should learn from previous experiences; they guide us in the process of reforming people, or saving the world -as you term it-.
I will continue to say it, I do not believe Islam -as an identity, philosphy, religion, social reforming power,
quest for knowledge, ethical code, spiritual motivator, and life guide-, to be founded on -probably wrong- ideas.
Muslims might be the primary making you think so. I agree that lots of Muslims have deviated from the very core principles of Islam, I don't deny it. However, I believe that Islam -with its basics, and with its flexibility to be renewed to suit different times and places- is the most effective means towards social, economic, and political reform -at least in the Muslim world-.
Just see what Mr. Amr Khaled has achieved in his 2-year project "Life Makers: Development through FAITH"; he has basically started the first spark of an upcoming dawn. His project is simply the most succesful overall-development project the Muslim world has ever knew. I believe this kind of dreams are the most wanted steps to "save this world".
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Saladin
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 30, 2005 - 01:37 AM
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Fuchs, you're totally lost...you don't even get why I'm here in this discussion...
-i am on the side of the poor, the wretched and the oppressed, the unheard and the loosers. i am fighting capitalist or premodern exploitation and any kind of oppressionpower.- says Fuchs
Well...guess what...Islam has started doing this process 1400 years ago...and I've chosen to belong to Islam because of that.
-you are trying to make people obey the leaders of islam and the islam nations and culural rules.-says Fuchs
What on Earth makes you think so...in Islam, Fuchs, in its fundamental basics, there is NO theocracy. There's a whole chapter in the Qur'an called "Ash-Shura", or "Consensus" or literally "Rule of the People". The word "Men of Religion" does not exist in the basics of Islam, and if it exists in some Muslim societies today, I totally go in disagreemnt with such things.
-you want the people to make life? what kind of life is that, where women can only feel free and comfortable when the cover their hair or even face, because everybody is watching and complaining if she doesnt, or consider her a hore?- says Fuchs.
Yeah, I dream about a world, in which Muslims and others leave in equity and prosperity. What about women who protest in Turkey for their "right to cover their hair", and the government doesn't allow them to do so inside public establishments? Why are women who cover their always stereotyped as being forced to do so? This is an innacurate generalozation...Women and men in Islam are equal, but not identical. At least we don't leave our women to be sold and bought. We do not see that purchasing any rights "men" enjoy, is the ultimate evidence of women's freedom...we do not consider men to be that superior so that women would dream of "matching" their qualities.
However, I'm not saying that everything is OK in the Muslim world today: we're in the midst of our "dark ages" sadly....but this is because of our full neglect of the core principles of Islam, and because of our reluctance in carrying out fruitful religious renewal.
-adam and eve? sorry, what about the ape-to-men-theory. you should have heard about it. there is good prove already ...).- says Fuchs.
I will not go in deep discussions concerning this issue...just have a look on this website: www.harunyahya.com
-WE DONT NEED RELIGION, as it can never transform according to reality, unless it stops being religious.- says Fuchs.
What do you mean? Religions were the most powerful calls for change throughout histroy. I'm really curious to know tha fate of religious people in a coutry ruled by Fuchs.
Just to know, when Muhammad entered Mecca peacefully with his 10,000 troops, he did not "take his vengenace" or "retaliate" , or even hold a "Nuremberg trial" for the Meccans, who tortured, starved, stole, burned, raped Muslims for 13 years, then sent them out of Mecca, then waged lots of attacks against them for long years. He said to them : "Go you are free people".
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Azira Aziz
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 30, 2005 - 02:30 AM
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[Portions of quoted material deleted for word limit. Original links retained. -js]
I've been following as an observer for a while, since religious discussion isn't really my forte, but I guess as usual I can never really resist.
Better late than never, I suppose.
To the atheists. I respect your belief of the lack of God, though I don't necessarily agree with you. I can honestly say that without personal miraculous interventions which, believe me, were beyond the grasps of logic and any scientific explanation (I took a break from religious beliefs and God for about a year when I decided I wanted to find a religion which defines me, and not because of the simple fact I was born a Muslim) I wouldn't be sitting here typing this post =). I am alive because Allah wants me to, and I'm helluva glad for it.
The importance of faith in religion, someone or something is an extremely significant factor for mental and physical health, not to mention social-economy structure of the majority of humans in the world. We have fought for it and paid in bitter tears bathed in blood, we sought it with every single fibre in our beings to assure us that our existance has a reward in the end of the day or that we had a purpose. Destiny is a popular theme. Qada' and Qadar for the Muslims. In Reader's Digest there was not once, but two feature articles on the subject and in every edition how powerful the power of faith is. Not specifically on Jesus, Krishna, etc. But simply faith.
Heck, it's a dangerous and powerful thing, faith is, and yet, it is the most wonderful thing that anyone could ever possess. It gives us hope when we're down with the dogs, it gives us something to cling to in the everconstantly changing world. It fulfills the need to belong, as a single group that watches each others' backs.
On comments concerning Islam...nowhere in Islam, Fuchs, are women oppressed. Culture and people makes a society cruel to a woman. Moderation is the key of the Islam faith, while radicalism are people who needs a reality check or plain ignorant.
Here's an article about Women Scholars and their partnership with men since our earliest days, even when the civilization gradually declined;
http://www.islamfortoday.com/womenscholars.htm
On the position of women in Islam and the Society;
http://www.islamfortoday.com/turabi01.htm
A comparison between the position of women in Islam and in the Christendom;
http://www.islamfortoday.com/shatteringillusions.htm
And yes, I know I don't wear the hijab now, but I plan to do so in the future. How near or far has yet to be decided. It's a personal choice culturally here.
competition is not the proper option for economical and political affairs, or lets say for all serious matters in this world, because in this serious matters GAMES are causing more problems. competition makes GAMES. GAMES need coincidance. do you think we ll need coincidance to solve our problems? i do not. we need to be wise and solidary. i think LIFE should be no game, because in games e FEW are winning and the rest gets nothing, as we have the world today. lets PLAY GAMES for fun, not for life!
the reason why these violant hierarchies are so dominant in this world is clear: ITS VERY EFFECTIVE, especially when competition is the basic social structure. i could live with less effective structures if only exploitation and oppression would end... the difficult thing (to understand) about oppression today that there is a strong tendency to shift the oppressive structure INTO the people (individuals). michel focault wrote delightning books on this topic! but especially this tendency of INTERNALIZATION bears THE GREAT CHANCE, too. the self-aware and empowered world-citizen, who decides to live for love and solidarity and joins the struggle for it.
I think both of those points can be summed up to one argument. There's this age old argument concerning how the world has ying and yang, good and evil, and that we can never have one without the other. There is only light or the absence of it. To have wisdom and solidarity, you need to learn how to and acquire it first. To have certain good things happen to certain people, you must acquire the means and influence the right people.
It's more or less the Duality Principle:
http://www.posttool.com/cisna/dual.html
And you can get more info on duality principle here;
http://www.isna.net/uploads/media/Sabah_Karam_-_Duality_Principle.doc
I hope it answers your questions.
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Marco
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EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 30, 2005 - 07:28 AM
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ayman...
i took a look at mr khaleds page, and got the impression that i was still very naiv to discuss with you this way. im sorry to say, but we do not work on the same side. let me bring it explicitly: apart of my own, i am on the side of the poor, the wretched and the oppressed, the unheard and the loosers. i am fighting capitalist or premodern exploitation and any kind of oppressionpower.
you are trying to make people obey the leaders of islam and the islam nations and culural rules. you want the people to make life? what kind of life is that, where women can only feel free and comfortable when the cover their hair or even face, because everybody is watching and complaining if she doesnt, or consider her a hore? people should be equal and free in doing, what THEY consider to be right! to reach that we have TO LEARN FROM THE PAST OF THE WHOLE WORLD to avoid the same mistakes (did you ever consider atheist ideas as possibly right? i did the other way around. there was even a time i was very religious, mixing the most attrective ideas from different religions, but found out it is still probably wrong. adam and eve? sorry, what about the ape-to-men-theory. you should have heard about it. there is good prove already ...).
we need critical reflection individually and collectivly. we need love and understanding. WE NEED TO BELIEVE, because we can never know 100% and for ever if something is really true. we need openminded cosmopolitan worldpeople. WE DONT NEED RELIGION, as it can never transform according to reality, unless it stops being religious.
sorry for that. find your peace in islam. i mean it. but dont try to mix it up with an emancipative struggle.
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Brigitta
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 31, 2005 - 07:26 AM
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I hope am not lost, but this thread is first and foremost about cultural diversity and equity isn’t it? And cultural diversity and equity are about respect and tolerance for each other’s culture’s religions, beliefs and even opinions right?
Well, I am for all those values but above all, I advocate the reduction and finally, gradual elimination of the world’s less fortunate masses suffering. In my opinion the answers do not lie in the “supreme goodness” of one religion over others or one culture over others. I am a Christian and can go into a long “Christian-righteous” lecture about the supremacy of the Christian virtue above other religions as the answer to mankind’s woes.But of course I won’t. WHY? Because in a world that has always had diverse cultures, religions and beliefs, championing your own values over other peoples’ only breeds opposition and increases prejudice.I could even begin to compare Christianity, which is of course “the best religion ever” as far as any Christian is concerned,(don’t Muslims feel the same about Islam and Buddhists about Buddhism etc?) with other religions just to prove that it is “better” than other religions but I wont, for the reason that it makes others feel offended and therefore become defensive. That sets us back at square zero where we don’t make any progress but waste much precious time in biased, sentimental and futile debates.
What am driving at is that: for as long as the sun rises from the East and sets in the West, people will never agree on one thing when it comes to beliefs and religions. But even so people’s basic needs, challenges and aspirations will always be the same. now the only way to make universal or even local progress in changing things for the better is for us to set aside religious differences and their resultant futile debates because those differences we most likely will never get around. But Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindi’s, Buddhists and all those other believers are just humans subject to common suffering (at certain levels) needs and aspirations. From our basic similarities, we can level a common ground on which to work towards the common good of mankind. religion need not be a bone of contention or even a topic for debate between modern and enlightened people.NO.rather, we can even use our different religions as a ground for unity if we are open minded enough to understand that everyone can learn something good and valuable from every religion in the quest for spiritual growth. Insights from other religions can either re-affirm your own religion’s virtue or expose your religion’s weakness(they exist too!).
There is something about “religion” that somehow stops people from growing spiritually and even interferes in human relationships(irony,irony,irony!).watch how self-righteous,full of “religious” pride and even violently defensive and protective religious people have been in history and still are! I see no God in Christians persecuting others,“holy” wars and dutiful religious ceremonies. No thank you!I see no God in any religious pride,my God teaches humility,love,peace and harmony. I don’t know about yours,if you have any?
Basically religion should be about salvation for your soul foremost before it becomes just “a way of life” or a weapon for worldly gains like dominion, vengeance and popularity. Trouble with most people is that they are so religious they have compromised their souls in the process (most ironic!):quick to use religion as justification for atrocities, talk more about war, destruction and hate than about love(I thought God was about love?),good at observing ceremonies outwardly and “carrying their burdens” when inside nothing about them really changes.I am a Christian alright but I value my relationship with God foremost and mankind next more than I value any age old traditions that were originally intended to improve my relationship with God but have lost their spiritual value along the way which is to say that I believe in God, hear his word and endeavor to live by his statutes but AM NOT RELIGIOUS. Religions are about ceremony and not spiritual fulfillment.
Therefore let me exit by agreeing with Fuchs that WE DO NOT NEED RELIGION to achieve a better state for disadvantaged people in the world and add that what we really need is to look beyond our own religious or cultural self-centered world’s and self-righteous views to what we have in common as humans be it strengths or weaknesses and work with and on those to make a better world. Judgment on whose religion is “better”is best left to the Maker or whoever you believe in since you and I either only inherited or learned these religions which have been around longer than you and I will!
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Saladin
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 31, 2005 - 09:01 AM
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the BMK,
thank you for you moderate views!
I don't want people here to think that I'm here to show that Islam is better than other religions. Yes, I do believe it is, but it's just the same way as you believe Christendom is the best religion.
I will state one fundamental difference -not necessarily positive of negative- between Islam and other -let's say- religions. Islam is NOT just a religion, it's a system.
Moreover, just like Christian missionaries, Islam is not a faith diretced only to "the elect"; it has a universal message...in the same way you're using this web facility to spread whatever your ideas might be.
This system regulates this life, for the sake of the after life. It combines "religion" with "worldly affairs".
A good Muslim should be successful economically, scientifically, ethically, politically, technologically, health-wise, family-wise, spiritually-wise, and tolerance-wise with respect to others....because Islam orders him/her to be likewise.
Saying that we DO NOT need religion to solve problems means simply that people should not be Muslims...since Islam in its essence is a system that aims at regulating life, in the most just way -as Muslims believe and think of course-.
About religious wars, I am not ashamed of all wars that have been carried out in the name of Islam. War is inevitable,...the Allies had to fight the Nazis to restore justice.Islam as a "constitution" regulates war too, with very specific conditions, not to force anyone to convert.... I'm proud that the Qur'an states that one should give food "with love" to war prisoners...these are Islam's rules for warfare - 14 centuries before the Geneva Conventions:
[They fulfill vows and fear a day the evil of which shall be spreading far and wide. And they FEED, WITH LOVE, the indigent, the orphan, and the CAPTIVE,-(Saying),"We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks. ] (076:008-009)
Until today, I challenge anyone to know of any code for treating POWs that puts the clause "with love"...when feeding a captive.
Muhammad (s) said to an armed convoy: "Never kill a woman, never kill a child, never kill an eleder, never destroy a house, never burn a plant. You will find monks worshipping in monasteries, do not disturb them, for that they are in the protection of Allah".
Islam BANS religious converting by force. The Qur'an says: [There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. ] 2:256
and [The truth is from your Lord: Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it)] 18:29
Please guys don't misunderstand, I'm only PRESENTING my belief, and NOT saying that it is good while everything else is bad.
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Marco
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EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
November 28, 2005 - 10:35 AM
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oops- i missed to follow up the discussion (before i was informed by TIG...)
@ the BMK: you have a very beautiful mind in my eyes. theres is absolutly nothing left for me to say than to express my deepest adoration for your explications.
@ chibimelody: sorry, but dont u think your comment was a little too long and displaced in this thread? please, try to be a bit more sensitive and also self-critical. u really step on my nerves ...
@ ayman: you are very witty as i realised before. u always find a way to bring ur arguments for islam. anyhow. i would not even care, if there was not so many people in TIG advertising religion and especially islam. its just that i am getting tired and if there was not somebody like theBMK id have given up already, because the most of them do not even discuss like you showed, you can.
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Marco
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EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
December 1, 2005 - 08:21 AM
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sorry, ayman...
witty means something like intelligent. as i said, i dont even dislike the way you present your arguments as you know how to discuss and have a symphatic view on islam. just understand my situation. im not discussing for FUN. life is not a game for me. when im discussing i want to increase the knowledge and understanding of society (my and others). the most religious people just refuse, what i offer. instead of developing exchange they want me to convince of something. i love self-critical people. i dont like people who obey something or somebody instead...
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Saladin
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EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
December 1, 2005 - 08:30 AM
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@ Fuchs,
Bro, it seems that you Originally posted by Fuchs
oops- missed to follow up the discussion
Originally posted by Fuchs
@ ayman: you are very witty as i realised before. u always find a way to bring ur arguments for islam. anyhow.
[/B]
I don't get what you mean by the term "witty" bro...plz explain. Moreover, if I can find my way to bring my argument for Islam, then it shows one thing: I find Islam to be my guide..it's my freedom bro..have you got problems with that?
Originally posted by Fuchs
i would not even care, if there was not so many people in TIG advertising religion and especially islam. its just that i am getting tired and if there was not somebody like theBMK id have given up already, because the most of them do not even discuss like you showed, you can.[/B]
Marco, if you're tired from listening to the "other view" in the debate, I guess you're in the wrong place. I said before that I'm here to present the truth of my faith, and to correct misconceptions people have about it...sounds O.K. for me, in light of "freedom of expression"...and I still dunno why are you having problems with that.
peace
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Marco
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EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
December 18, 2005 - 10:22 AM
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so? this thread is dead?
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Brigitta
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
December 29, 2005 - 09:04 AM
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mmmhh.maybe everyone feels they've just about said it all.but of course as long as there is still something to believe in,we can go on and on.lemme just say that let us not stop believing in what we believe in for as long as it leads us to the light,the truth ,peace,love and harmony for our particular corners of the world.(peace and harmony in every corner of the world will inevitably amount
to universal peace wont it?)
I wish all u believers(there is plenty to believe in.if not God, then at least love, goodness and many other virtues will do)and nonbelivers all the best as we approach the new year.KEEP THE FAITH AND LET IT GROW STRONGER in the coming year all ye good people.
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