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Saladin
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ok
October 20, 2005 - 07:18 AM
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Fuchs,
My belief is based on the fact we are exhibited to continuous "testing" during this life, and that there is a reward-and-punish world after death...a person like Hitler should not be rewarded, and good people should not be punished...that's fair enough.
This "testing" can be manifested in wealth, poverty, injustice, and bla bla bla.....it's like drinking a horrible-taste medical potion...tastes bad, but have other useful aspects.
Originally posted by Fuchs
one thing at last: i dont care if someone call himself a mulsim or an atheist... i care about this: FOR ME THERE IS NO PEACE WITH OPPRESSION AND EXPLOITATION. that kind of peace ill fight to my very end! peace! fuchs
Would you please elaborate...I mean, whom do you think is exhibiting that sort of peace-as you think- ?
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Brigitta
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 20, 2005 - 08:37 AM
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"Believing" is really a broad term but if in this case its referring to "Faith" then i'll say it seems to me people have faith or no faith in certain things for various reasons.for example i find that affluent people/societies believe more in their knowledge,technology,resources and ideologies than anything else.why?because these are the things which provide them with solutions to their problems and answers to their questions.needy and less advanced societies/people however often believe in "higher powers" that is (supernatural powers) to provide them with answers and solutions as most of the questions and problems they are faced with are beyond their knowledge and capability.
i think that i can safely say i understand these stands perfectly for these reasons:
1. if your knowledge, technology and expertise are able to sustain you through almost anything and you get by just fine,why would you need a "god" to look up to?
2. when all the forces of the world(EXTERNAL AND INTERNAL) are positioned to threaten your very existence and your knowledge,capability and resources just cant sustain you where else to look to apart from a power mightier than sons of men?
these are just some reasons for belief or non-belief i have observed.in my part of the world(its poor,hunger/disease striken and underdeveloped) atheism is unheard of.actually we believe in God Almighty and pray together as a nation on many occasions.and i hear atheism is major in the Western world?somebody prove me wrong.
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Saladin
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 22, 2005 - 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by TheBMK
needy and less advanced societies/people however often believe in "higher powers" that is (supernatural powers) to provide them with answers and solutions as most of the questions and problems they are faced with are beyond their knowledge and capability.
I disagree, just have a look upon history:
In the middle ages, the Muslims were the leading economic and scientific nation of the world; places like Istanbul, Baghdad, Damascus, Cordoba, and Seville, were the world's wealthiest centers -however, Islam was embraced as -not only a religion- but also a "constitution" regualting worldly life.
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Marco
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 22, 2005 - 10:05 AM
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thanx for your concern, AYMAN.
so first to you: Who say, theres life after death? Someone? God? Is it possible to discuss it? NO! you believe, i do not! although i must admit that i dont know, because i havent been dead up to know. (that discussion is real old and boring. its just an example.) my believe base on propability. i listen to as much opinions as possible and reflect upon their content and their background, too: why is somebody believing in this or that? where does her/his ideas come from? I AM A CRITICAL PERSON WHO WANT TO CHANGE THE WORLD. thats why i cannot rest on believe or ideas which are propably wrong.
to elaborate this exploitation-something: I believe the success of religion in history base in the capability of religion to unify the people in any way, especially in the oppressive way (history tells). combining worldly power and religious hegemony is the most effective way of making people obey the ruling class or even dictator. it helps people to stand the sufferation of sickness and hunger. it prevents people effectivly from reflecting social process and economic dynamics. it gives easy explanations the people are longing for, even if the question is very difficult to answer in a more realistic way.
so you see: i go with theBMK. it just looks like we have the same attitude towrards BELIEVE. concerning this middle-class discussion. if theres a big middle-class in one region you will always find and international exploitation structure to keep that middleclass prosperous (f.e. a colony). if a middleclass is big enough it is also economically very strong and can be calles a ruling class, too. in the last 50 years company between the upper- and the middle-class we have in all high.industrialised countries of the world. they share interest: THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO LOOSE, compared to the poor majority of this world.
enough for today, eh?
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Marco
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EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 24, 2005 - 07:33 AM
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sometimes my words are a bit aggressive (im sorry). now i want to say, that we have a nice discussion here. i really like you  mean it!
@ bitsy: yes and no! what do you expect someone to see the moment her/his body stop working but the brain is still present for about two minutes or more? do you expect her/him to see something beyond her/his imagination? i do not. i guess she/he will have a kind of trip taking its pictures from the lifes experiance and imagination. believing her/his whole live theres a trip to heaven this moment "naturally" there will be something like this and very often theres not. from all i know about neurology this seem most propable in my eyes.
@ theBMK: first: as far as i know, theres a kind of antijudaism in the quran, in the way, that the jews are inferior to the muslims, from that story, where mohammed conquered these jewish tribes. but this is not comparable to the christian antijudaism making jews responsible for all kinds of "bad" things in the world, which became the modern antisemitism with the german nazis, and which has been im-/exported to the arab world through people like the mufti of jerusalem or the muslim-brotherhood (they really had A LOT OF CONTACT: got money, military equipment and a antisemtic radiostation from the nazis!!!) later it was mostly sayid qtub, who developed this ideology during. those are the fathers of the extremist antijewish movement of today (so maybe we seperate islam from islamism as an ideology?).
second: it was not really my point to identify religion with the poor. i meant, religion combined with world power is an effective mixture for hierarchy, or lets say for oppression. i didnt even meant its automatically like that, but which cultures, kingdoms and impires won in the past? the stronger ones! and for a kingdom to be strong it needs loyal (or sometimes fanatic) followers...
third: your quote: "Islam is a beautiful religion (...) its quest for peace and justice". Justice is actually not my term, because i like freedom too much. means, when you like justice you also like courts and governments, so you like hierarchy and oppression. i believe people could live without it when they just want to, even though its a difficult road that way.
@ ayman: let me admit: i respect the peaceful sides of islam and i respect the advance the islamic society brought into this world. i respect the peace in your it brings to you. i appreciate the opportunity of worshipping and praying in it, because these things are very comforting for individuals and communities concerning all aspects of emotion. but i see these other aspect of it (which it has in common with all other religions) as i described them above. and simply dont believe in it. thats all. i hope thats ok for you.
greetings from berlin, fuchs
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Saladin
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 24, 2005 - 09:21 AM
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[This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah; Who believe in the UNSEEN, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them] (Qur'an 2: 02-03)
You see clearly Fuchs that any Muslim should believe in the "directly" UNSEEN, unproven, unknown...as long as he submits him/herself to it...that what the word "faith" basically means.
You say that your thinking is bad on "probability", and that you do not follow ideas that are "probably" wrong. Would you then please enlighten me, and tell me about any idea that is "probably" right?
The truth is, if there's any idea that is 99% probably wrong, then it's 1 % probably right: the idea that is probably right, is probably wrong also -if we're dealing with probabilities-...and actually you said "although i must admit that i dont know".
"I AM A CRITICAL PERSON WHO WANT TO CHANGE THE WORLD"-actually Mohamed (s) was exactly like that: the only difference between you, me, and him, is that he has already changed the world.
You're tying again capitalism with prosperity, and religion with poverty....although I didn't hear your comments about this:
[In the middle ages, the Muslims were the leading economic and scientific nation of the world; places like Istanbul, Baghdad, Damascus, Cordoba, and Seville, were the world's wealthiest centers -however, Islam was embraced as -not only a religion- but also a "constitution" regualting worldly life.]
This just proves that what you think is not a general rule.
zdravo prijatelj
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Brigitta
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 24, 2005 - 10:39 AM
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Islam is a beautiful religion,with beautiful teachings that mankind could benefit from in its quest for peace and justice. And now that it is a worldwide religion Islam is more than just a traditional religion but a path most people have choosen to lead them to the light and to salvation in very much the same way Judaism-borne Christianity has been embraced worlwide.
After going through history, the Bible and the Quran it seems to me that for the Arab domain Islam is historically more than just a religion: it was also adopted as a doctrine for opposing their Jewish brother's-cum-opponents claim as sole and primary beneficiaries to God's blessings.Islam opposes Judaism's assertions and therefore asserts the Arab(originators of Islam)as the actual beneficiaries of God's blessings and therefore the Middle East's rightful reigning power.therefore it figures that Istanbul,Baghdad and other old Eastern civilisation points adopted Islam not only as religion but constitution to regulate worldly life because initially Islam was not just about faith in God but power to Muslims as their rightful inheritance from God.This is in historic context
Although associating poverty with religion and capitalism with prosperity may not be true or accurate its a fact that long before they became as technologically and scientifically advanced and wealthy as they are now,Western nations adopted Christianity and it is from them that Africa learned about Christianity.Now that they have progressed from those simple days,things have changed. Capitalism has made certain elites and individuals in the West so much richer than some whole 3rd world countries will ever hope to be, while others get poorer by the day.All this means is that capitalism is indeed responsible for prosperity except that this prosperity is confined to certain elite societies and not shared equally among the human race.All it means is that religion makes so much more sense to the endangered,needy and desperate than to the safe,wealthy and satisfied since religion, especially Christianity and Islam is about salvation and sustainance for both the body and the soul.This is in the present context.
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Lucia
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 24, 2005 - 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by Fuchs
so first to you: Who say, theres life after death? Someone? God? Is it possible to discuss it? NO!
I have no way of knowing what the original title or topic of this thread was, but I'm pretty sure it was not "ok," so I don't know if what is being discussed is pertinent to the original thread.
I just wanted to add two comments. Firstly, concerning the above quote, it is not accurate at all. There are many documented accounts of people who have been clinically dead and come back to life and told of their experiences during the time they were dead.
Secondly, I want to point out, in particular, concerning the reference to Islamic history which was cited to discredit the previous statement that affluent peoples tend to believe in themselves and their own resources, while more needy peoples tend to put their faith in the supernatural, or God - I think it is important not to apply this statement historically, but it should only be applied in the context of this day and age. A fact that I see being missed throughout all the threads I read, especially ones attacking Islam for conservative practices or encroachment on rights etc., is that, until recent decades, Christians and Christianity were also as conservative as Muslims and Islam, despite the wealth of the Christians in question. The difference is that materialism and earthbound values have taken over in Christian countries. I see these same earthbound values becoming more and more popular in some Muslim societies and those societies becoming more like today's Christian ones.
Do not forget, that Christianity used to be applied in lives and societies with the same degree of rigidity and conservatism that Islam is still applied in many countries.
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Saladin
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 24, 2005 - 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by TheBMK
Islam is historically more than just a religion: it was also adopted as a doctrine for opposing their Jewish brother's-cum-opponents claim as sole and primary beneficiaries to God's blessings.
I agree that Islam is not just about spiritual teachings, and that it is a full-scale life system, codifying and arranging spiritual and worldly affairs. I agree also that some extremist Muslims try to interpret Islamic texts in a way that enables them to practise enmity towards Jews.
However, I disagree that Islam in its essence and basic teachings, endoctrinates hatred of Jews. If you have ever read the script of the "Sahifa" or the treaty bewteen the Muslims and the Jews of Medina, you will find it perhaps more "civilized" than any modern constitution, in terms of considering Muslims and Jews in Medina as one "Ummah" -nation, one citizenship-, enjoying the same rights and performing the same duties. Muhammad (s) himself was the one who signed this "sahifa", 1426 years ago.
Bitsy,
In most of Muslim countries, people are not really practising Islam in the rigid way you think of. However, I agree that there are always those extremist minorities, that are not only present in Islam, but also in any religion or ideology.
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Saladin
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wow
October 25, 2005 - 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by Fuchs
as far as i know, theres a kind of antijudaism in the quran, in the way, that the jews are inferior to the muslims, from that story, where mohammed conquered these jewish tribes.
I'm really amazed when people base their knowledge on superficial knowledge like this.
Let's go back to the history of the early Islam:
When Islam started, it begun as a movement in Mecca during its first 13 years, where Muslims were ultimately exhibited to the cruelest forms of torturing, hunger, poverty, and oppression. The oppression reached its peak when Muhammad's (s) own safety was threatened by Mecca's pagans.
All of Mecca's Muslims migrated secertly to Medina. In Medina, there were two major Arabs tribes: The Aws and the Khazraj, and three major Jewish tribes: Banu Quraydha, Banu Qaynuqa', and Banu An-Nadir. The Arab tribes embraced Islam during two successive pilgrimages of them two Mecca, where they met with Muhammad (s), and were convinced by Islam.
When Muhammad (S)arrived to Medina, he set out the first ever known form of civil constitution, founded on citizenship rights and duties: it was the "Sahifa", or the "treaty" in which Muslims and Jews in Medina were declared as a "nation" altogether, and they pledged they will protect Medina from external threats, and they will not aid any inavders against one another.
After five years, the Meccans gathered a 10,000 troops army and encircled Medina, where only 1500 Muslims were defending it. It was only when Banu Quraydha aided the Meccans in hitting the Muslims from inside Medina, Muahmmad (s) expelled them.
I will elaborate more about that, but I gtg now...
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Brigitta
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 25, 2005 - 05:36 AM
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This discussion is so good you people have me glued!
Fuchs,
QUOTE 1
"....but this is not comparable to the christian antijudaism making jews responsible for all kinds of "bad" things in the world, which became the modern antisemitism with the german nazis,..."
well,I could be naive or something but I surely never knew there was a "Christian anti-Judaism" element in the Nazi's anti-Semitism because from what i read and learned, the Nazi's anti-Semitisim was more about racism(primary) and thinly veiled envy(secondary)than it was about religion (were/are not Nazi's 'non-believers'?)I understood that Nazi's were for the supremacy of the Aryan race and considered the Jews,who were particularly successful in their various businesses and careers the unwanted aliens who were flourishing at the Aryan's expense and so responsible for bad things in germany.Did i get wrong?No.
QUOTE 2
"..it was not really my point to identify religion with the poor. i meant, religion combined with world power is an effective mixture for hierarchy, or lets say for oppression. i didnt even meant its automatically like that, but which cultures, kingdoms and impires won in the past? the stronger ones! and for a kingdom to be strong it needs loyal (or sometimes fanatic) followers..."
yes,there are other reasons why people embrace religion.different world regions societies and individuals have different reasons(the reasons being as many as the individuals) for taking up different religions and the reason i presented was as,i quote myself,just"one of the many reasons"
it seems to me that combining religion and world power is too far gone with history(the last such kingdom was the Ottoman) and in these mordern days filled with so many liberal political ideologies and religious doctrines that people live by(many thanks to democracy)it would be impossible for any government to control people(let alone oppress them!)with any religion based powers.Most modern societies will not be dominated or dictated to by govts on whatever basis.Unlike in the past when the trend was for people to submit to their governments and serve, these days people expect to be served by govts and the govts to submit to their will(majority reign!)and those countries which are still under dictatorship governments suddenly wake up to find themselves freed by the world's super-powers-cum-champions of democracy.Therefore combining religion & power does not cross my mind in the present context.
QUOTE 3
"..your quote: "Islam is a beautiful religion (...) its quest for peace and justice". Justice is actually not my term, because i like freedom too much. means, when you like justice you also like courts and governments, so you like hierarchy and oppression. i believe people could live without it when they just want to, even though its a difficult road that way."
i agree.freedom is no doubt the best state man should not do without because it gives us room to grow physically mentally spiritually and in every possible way.i guess it is easily taken for granted by most of us(me inclusive and you apparently not)since we were born free.only when we go back in history and learn that at some point in time, almost all kinds of people(our respective own especially) were once subdued in 1 way or other by either foreigners or their own rulers do we appreciate.if it wasnt for freedom(of expression and association in this case)you and i wouldnt be having this discussion here would we? but then again if we were to live without justice, somebody would stop me from exercising my freedom or even violate me for exercising my freedom and get away with it.Freedom would loose its value.TIG people,Love your freedom,i will too coz it lets us believe in who and what we want. but allow justice to work,to protect freedom!let us view justice and freedom as the twin banners for universal harmony and equity.(and believe in them too!)
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Marco
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oops
October 25, 2005 - 08:25 AM
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no its getting difficult, but let me try...
to ayman: i admit im not well-read concerning the history of islam (im not a historician at all). but one thing you should admit, too: theres not ONE history of islam as there are several interpretations amongst several regions and kinds of islam. and even if theres is something like a truth about it we can get closer to (if we are openminded enough), it doesnt mean automatically that this thruthful interpretation had any significants in the past. so these interesting things you tell wasnt maybe that important socially, because most people in hte islamic regions didnt even now about the democratic attitudes of muhammad, but rather believed in the superiority of of arab islam??? hey! thats not an attack! i didnt mean you at all. i just think people have been like this almost everywhere in the world, especially in the big challenging civilizations ...
to theBMK: lets glue it on. live is too short to just freeze and wait.
antisemitism: sure. you are right. but this thing didnt came out of nothing. what you described is the modern antisemitism, which is different from christian antijudaism in exactly the way you elaborated. but the similarities are several, too. especially the "picture" the nazis draw of the jews in their propaganda used A LOT of the old stereotypes, which developed during the middle ages, where the christian church was campaigning against the murderers of jesus and the stupid uneducated european villagers and cityfolks have been looking for guilty ones of plague, cholera and economical decay (the spring-poisoner, the greedy, the lusty, the weak, the hipocritical superstitious jew and so on).
religion and power: today, this combination is working as well, a little different than with the ottoman, but it works. lets say we live in a very diversiv world-society. a lot of people have the chances (in many ways) to choose their religion as well as the job they get exploited in. so: the ottoman convinced their followers of fighting, telling them, they will reach heaven dieing like this (maybe). today people join army because they have a secure income, but also often because they LOVE their NATION (uh, this combination makes me shivering from disgust). and some even because they believe, god tell them to do so, in the us, but especially the united islamistic (not islamic) terrorists in iraq from all over the world. (somebody know >hammodi<, tig-member from iraq??? ask her/him!)
democracy: there is good reason to appreciate democracy like you do. but theres good reason to look for a better ideal than democracy, because it is not what it seem to be. the for democracy getting that strong and famous in the world nowadays is not the result of good fighting bad. this democracy-something developed paralell to capitalism. the democratic nation is the suitable powerstructure to capitalist economy. thats hard to explain in short words. if you are interested in such a discussion, we ll see forward to have one, eh?
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Marco
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EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 25, 2005 - 08:52 AM
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thank you bitsy. you remind us twice to get back to the topic. i agree that makes sense ...
@ bitsy: i have to believe and as i try to believe in the search of propability i have to keep myself uptodate. so you can send me a link to find a start to know something more about the life-after-death experiances? maybe we discuss this in another thread? or someone else may give a sign she or he is interestet, too?
@ ayman: once again VERY interestening. only i think u didnt get what bitsy was saying (my interpretation). i really see u are an impressing philosipher and i really enjoy the insight in your world. i really mean it. but i also recognised the way you are discussing. (its not offtopic!) you are very intime while giving (your religion) but very distant towards others ever might give you. i hope im wrong and this might reach you. your way of believing is not what we need to save the world. im sorry to be that direct, but it just seems the right time to do so. as i said in the starting-post of this thread: its necessary to open up ones mind as much as needed to keep updated or lets say in a mystical way: if we not step out certain circles of the past, we will die from its "sickness". (1) i dont know if there is a way out ( i see the collapse rigth before me. at least we are all walking on a huge razorblade concerning this ) but i know we are not supposed to waste time to rest on ideas which are propably wrong. someone who blocks at our way to the roots, the background of the topic, the question or whatever, undermine our only chance, to be as wise as possible, dealing with the huge problems we have in this world. not to be openminded having this aim, means stopping us. please, everybody, stop anywhere else. open up and join the open minded network struggling for a world without exploitation and oppression.
(1 for example competition. not competition itself is a sickness (that idea might be part of a fascist ideolgy even). but the social function of competition being the main concept of production and reproduction, of division and consuming.
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Saladin
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oops
October 25, 2005 - 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by Fuchs
to ayman: i admit im not well-read concerning the history of islam (im not a historician at all).
Well, I'm not a historian either -I'm a construction engineering student-, but I dug in books and libraries to explore different religions and ideologies...and I've chosen Islam...it's my right.
Originally posted by Fuchs
theres not ONE history of islam as there are several interpretations amongst several regions and kinds of islam.
Agreed, since there are several ways to interpret the same religious text, that range from moderate to extremist. This phenomena did not only exist in every religion, but also in political and economic ideologies.
The primary concern is that Muslims should REFORM, they should stimulate the bright example of Muhammad (s), and resurrect their civilization in the light of keeping fundamentals, while sticking to the most moderate interpretations of religious texts...that's basically what I am trying to follow through these discussions.
Originally posted by Fuchs
so these interesting things you tell wasnt maybe that important socially, because most people in hte islamic regions didnt even now about the democratic attitudes of muhammad, but rather believed in the superiority of of arab islam???
Actually those "interesting things" are true facts, they are available for everyone in Sunnah books, as well as in many of orientalism books.
Maybe most people in the Islamic regions don't know about the "Sahifa", because simply the majority of the world's Muslims are illiterate easily-driven masses...
But rest assured that most of the modern moderate Muslim reformist scholars know about it, -such as Jamaluddin Al-Afghani, Muhammad 'Abduh, Rashid Reda, Muhammad Al-Ghazali, Dr. Khalid Muhammad Khalid, Mitwally Al-Sha'rawy, Dr. Muhammad 'Emara, and 'Amr Khaled-, and are proud that their religion has such leading tolerant values.
Muhammad (s) founded his policies on "Shura" which I even consider to be more "elegant" than democracy.
Yes, of course there were times Islam was manipulated by Arab dynasties to legitimize their rule...this was evident in the Umayyad and the 'Abbasid Caliphates...but was it the fault of Islam itself, or the fault of some presumably-called Muslims ?
The ones that Muslims should take as their role model is Muhammad (s) and his companions, not the Umayyads, 'Abbasids, or Ottomans....just to make my point clear.
peace
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Lucia
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Re: EQUITY! Humans have to believe!
October 25, 2005 - 11:49 AM
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[i]Originally posted by aymanelhakea
Bitsy,
In most of Muslim countries, people are not really practising Islam in the rigid way you think of. However, I agree that there are always those extremist minorities, that are not only present in Islam, but also in any religion or ideology.[/B]
Hmmm...now the thread is entitled oops. Does anyone know what the original title of this thread was?
Actually, I have little personal experience of Muslims who practice Islam in the rigid way I might have been thinking of, but I have been listening to other people who give me the impression that somewhere out there, there is a mass of Muslims very rigidly practicing Islam - usually, I have been told, in Iran and Saudi Arabia, for example. So far, a lot of the Muslims I have gotten acquainted with adhere to Islam less than I do, and I haven't even known anything about it. However, people like my brother warn me severely about getting involved with Muslim men, in particular, and dismiss my experiences of "liberal" Muslims as being without credibility.
And to Fuchs: "@ bitsy: yes and no! what do you expect someone to see the moment her/his body stop working but the brain is still present for about two minutes or more? do you expect her/him to see something beyond her/his imagination? i do not. i guess she/he will have a kind of trip taking its pictures from the lifes experiance and imagination. believing her/his whole live theres a trip to heaven this moment "naturally" there will be something like this and very often theres not. from all i know about neurology this seem most propable in my eyes."
I am not talking about a few minutes after a person dies. The after-death experiences I am talking about occur with people who have been clinically dead for an hour or more, and without having read anything of their post-death experiences, you can't know the nature of the things they experienced during that time. If one wants to know what they saw, all one has to do is read their accounts. I wasn't posing a question, I was making a statement.
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