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Andrew Lauman
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The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
November 7, 2002 - 12:58 PM
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Will we ever come up with alternative energies? What is preventing these from coming to market? The scary thing is, what type of weapons would be able to produce with this type of energy? If we had the technology to produce, lets say cold fussion, what then would we produce as weapons?? Yikes. Seems like a catch 22 going on.
Imagine what it would be like if we had free energy. What would this world look like??
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Robert Margolis
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Good Reason
November 7, 2002 - 08:09 AM
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There is a good reason oil is the main fuel: it is liquid at room temperature, it is relatively plentiful, and it has a high amount of energy for a given volume. If oil becomes too expensive, the oil companies will find something else to sell.
You do bring up an interesting point, energy sources having higher power densities make them more economic as well as greater weapons potential. Energy sources that are more dilute have less weapons capability, but are harder to pass the economic test.
Just read about this project in Australia:
http://www.enviromission.com.au/index1.htm
They want to build a 1 km high tower with a 7km diameter base to produce only 200MW of electricity. Fortunately, in Australia there is still a lot of land available for such a project.
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Andrew Lauman
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Re: The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
December 7, 2002 - 04:50 AM
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I am not really an energy expert. Hehe.
I am just wondering why there are the factors that are preventing us from developing newer technologies? Will these technologies come to the market in time? It talks about in 5 years, is this enough time?
Does greed prevent us from bringing about quicker solutions? ie, there needs to be a market demand for the product or it won't happen.
But unfortunately, not many people are willing to pay extra for greener cars or for the less power option.
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
December 8, 2002 - 02:12 AM
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The biggest problem with most newer technologies is that most of their life cycle cost is capital rather than fuel or operations/maintenance (O&M). This means that an investor puts up a lot of money and then has to wait longer for the returns than current energy sources (like natural gas turbines that are making profit after three years).
Maybe the recent internet bubble exacerbated this. If one is used to getting huge profits quickly, they are not likely to invest in something and have to wait several years to make money on it. Probably this is where some type of government R&D comes in.
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Robert Margolis
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It's not the oil companies
December 9, 2002 - 02:00 AM
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Really... oil is a very convenient and relatively plentiful fuel. Replacing this convenient fuel will be felt by all. The best thing solar and wind could do is not to over-reach. There are many niches they can profitably fill and slowly build market share. This way they make money at rates the investors like and help the environment at the same time. As far as the typewriter analogy, IBM made typewriters now they make laptops. IF the demand changes the companies will change too.
As for informed consumers, if people could be taught that electricity is not just the stuff that comes out of the socket... ;-)
On the profile, it is nuclear engineering I use to pay the bills. :-) Nuclear physicists are actually quite rare these days. Particle and theoretical physicists now dominate fundamental research in physics. Nuclear engineering is tasked with the applications and implementation.
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Andrew Lauman
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Re: The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
December 9, 2002 - 12:57 PM
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Hey Robert,
Wow, quite the profile, dude. A nuclear physicist. I have always wanted to meet a nuclear physicist. My life is complete. Saawweet.
So Robert, how does the normal consumer change from an uninformed consumer to an informed consumer? Because what I see from what you said is that the investment is a longer term. Kinda like Ballard Power, eh? There is also is another amazing company down in Michigan, the name eludes me. Hmmm. You will probably know. They are producing solar cells for roofs, walls, etc.
My dad has a company on the stockmarket, http://www.aquapure.com, and he is facing the same challenge. He has a great product, great ideas, great knowledge, but the social awareness isn't there yet. To invest in his company means you have to make a longterm commitment, quite opposite to the trend of making a quick million.
What I see is the social implications of the oil industry is devasting. Interestingly enough, it is affecting my dad's viability. The oil industry wants to see the profitiability of oil continue. So millions go into the continuance of using oil. Most higher education systems are affected by the money of oil. I see a lot of RD based upon a newer version of oil consumption. How to use oil in more products. Though it is changing, Thank God, we still have a long way to go.
If we were to bring alternative energies to market, the oil industry would be greatly affected. It would probably be like what happened to the typewritter when good old computers came to the market. Bubye. And so the oil industry has to cling onto market share. Kinda like Edison and Telsa when Telsa wanted to bring alternating electricity to market. Edison didn't want it.
Look how many middle eastern countries would no longer have a share in political power if alternative enery was brought to market.
There are many sociological issues that are preventing alternative energy from making the market. And so what happens? Wars, disease, global warming, hate, intolerance and species extinction. And why? Because of of the main motivator, greed in our society. Nice.
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Andrew Lauman
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Re: The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
December 15, 2002 - 09:07 AM
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Oh well, nuclear whatever. Still rocks.
So how does that change? Where the consumers are interested in oil consumption?
Computers were brought about because of efficiency. More uses.
Can ballard power or whoever bring a product to market that actually makes more economical sense?
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
December 15, 2002 - 10:00 AM
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Yes, change can happen, but alternative energy must go for the niche markets first. Technologies to replace the gasolene engine are probably not ready yet. There are special energy needs where fuel cells or solar or wind can make headway and show profit. One good thing about profit is that then you attract investors and serious attention. What has often happened is that enthusiasts try to take on the strongest advantage applications of fossil fuels (baseload grid power, automobiles, etc. When these fail, it makes all of alternative energy look bad.
Remote villages can make better use of solar than high density cities. Fuel cells are used in California by companies that want backup power from blackouts. There are other niches and they are the path that will drive the technology. Eventually, this will change minds and hearts and fossil fuels will be rendered as obsolete as buggy whips.
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Mike
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Re: The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
December 15, 2002 - 10:29 AM
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Firstly.
Rob - the tower idea is a good one and I really hope it takes off, and though it seems a little flamboyant - there really is a LOT of spare room in this country. So long as it doesnt interfere with the transmission of the television broadcasts for cricket and football, im sure Australians wont mind it being so big.
Secondly.
Cold Fusion is a fairly discounted theory right now. Right? I read somewhere that ever since a small group of scientists claimed to have achieved the reaction at room temperature, scientists have doubted that it could have ever been possible. So in terms of what weapons could come out of that specifically, its probably not going to be a problem.
The perceived *green* energy sources - wind, water, and solar - aren't going to be spawning weapons any time soon. these formats just dont produce enough energy per unit to be able to power the latest weapons; non-lethal or not.
Clean energy only seems profitable in the long run. That doesnt appeal to many big corporate energy producers. However, in Western Europe clean energy is becoming an incresingly profitable industry and is growing as fast as any other, if not more so. This is especially true in Scandinivia.
- - -
Pred.
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
December 16, 2002 - 09:14 AM
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If Enviromission can build the solar tower, that's fine. It is certainly a technological challenge since it would be twice the height of any current human structure. Australia has the special advantage of lots of open space.
As far as cold fusion, I find it a little suspicious that large numbers of labs have not been able to repeat the results. Physical phenomena are either repeatable or so strange (e.g. muon fusion) that they remain scientific curiousities rather than commercial products. Normal fusion research has actually made progress and may be a player in the second half of this century.
As far as solar energy not being useful for weapons, that is a "dual-edged sword". (sorry for the pun) While you don't have the military issues, this is further demonstration that solar is a diffuse energy source and must be captured over great distances. This is no problem for either a small application or a country with vast open space. Powering South Korea or Taiwan with solar would be trickier. Using solar where it works best will help both the solar industry and the environment.
And of course there is the legend that Archimedes designed a parabolic mirror to use solar heat for igniting the sails of enemy ships... ;-)
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vivek
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Re: The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
December 19, 2002 - 02:22 AM
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hey rsmarg,
long time.
yeah, the nuclear scientist has his charisma alright. when he speaks everyone listens.
liked your views.
but... let me add.
actually, in japan, honda motors has developed a hydrogen fuel car. i donno much, saw on tv. its out for sale.
nice way to replace petroleum (gasoline, whatever)
but it only shifts smoke from one chimney to another. afterall you need electricity to produce hydrogen from water. but i think there are better prospectus of finding better ways to produce electricity than dealing with the petrol shortage.
so... thumbs up to honda.
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Simon Moss
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hydrogen fuel cells
December 19, 2002 - 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by vivek_lahoti
...hydrogen fuel car. i donno much, saw on tv. its out for sale.
nice way to replace petroleum (gasoline, whatever)
but it only shifts smoke from one chimney to another. afterall you need electricity to produce hydrogen from water. but i think there are better prospectus of finding better ways to produce electricity than dealing with the petrol shortage.
Hydrogen fuel cars work by combining hydrogen (from a fuel tank of sorts) and oxygen from the atmosphere to create water and electricity. By making the electron transfer occur across membranes and a circuit it is possible to harness the electricity produced and use this to drive a motor. So, although electricity is usually needed to create hydrogen molecules from water, we're actually doing the opposite reaction (2H2 + O2 <=> 2H2O)
Heaps of companies are currenlty working on making thee fuel cells efficient enought to use in cars and personal transport vehicles, often using different methods. Ballard (www.ballard.com) have perhaps done the most promising work in Proton Exchange Membranes (PEM) cells, but there's a long way to go until they are really viable alternatives to petrol. Hydrogen is prohibitive at the moment as it's hard to get in its pure form, is highly reactive (needs really secure storage) and is just not available enough (probably due to lack of interest).
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Robert Margolis
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Re: The oil industry and it's hold on environmental issues
December 19, 2002 - 08:33 AM
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This is the first time I have been told I have charisma. Maybe I am in the wrong business. ;-)
There has been a lot of talk on the hydrogen economy. Even Chauncey Starr (first head of EPRI in the US, he has been around for a LONG time) has proposed a "continental supergrid" which is hydrogen based.
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Mike Cartier
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Alternative Energy
February 27, 2003 - 12:55 PM
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I like the project in Australia. There are many countries with much land which is uninhabited by people, and which animals and plants are scarce. There need to be more foundations and grant organizations which supply money for these types of projects. More government commitees and organizations would also help. Perhaps a massive advertising campaign throughout 1st world nations would help to fund them as well.
Michael Cartier
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Robert Margolis
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Our electric world...
March 18, 2003 - 01:02 AM
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To answer Smithisgeneric, wind power is a fast growing energy source across the globe. From offshore windpower at the North Sea the large demand for wind turbines in the US, wind is a competitor with natural gas (the BIG growth in electric generation)
As far as our using too much electricity, the switch to electricity has allowed industry to make its products while burning less fuel (i.e., economy of scale from using an electric grid instead of burning fuel at each factory). Electricity powers sewage treatment plants and provides refrigeration that prevents food spoilage and waste. Perhaps electricity has become so ubiquitous that is taken for granted.
The best part about electricity is that you can make it from just about any source. Obviously each source comes with its benefits and drawbacks. An ideal grid would have a wide variety of electric sources.
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