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Волк Апокалипси
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Evil is Good!
June 21, 2005 - 02:56 AM
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When we think about wars ,genocides and all the bad things that have happened to our fair world we shudder and think "i wish that had never happened" well this is an inapropriate idea. What if the american revolution had never happened? What if there had been no Hiroshuma?
What if hitler had been killed as a child?
Yes less people would have died but the world would be a different place, less safe and more cruel. i don't condone violence but i belive that for a civilization to suceed the must be an evil. i would like to hear other people's thought on this.
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Peculiar
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Re: Evil is Good!
June 24, 2005 - 09:50 AM
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No,
I don't support you opinior in any form.
There is clear difference between revolution and crises.
Revolution is good and the end of it always bring sucess but crises or violent always end up in bad new and failur.
So, revolution is good annd evil is bad (I requoute you).
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devu2005
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Re: Evil is Good!
June 26, 2005 - 10:40 AM
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Good and evil are indispensable elements of life.
Good would be incomplete without evil.
For example, somebody's win would be incomplete or non-existant unless somebody else loses.
Imagine if there was only one taste: sweetness and no saltiness, no chilly. Wouldn't life be incomplete? Wouldn't you get bored?
If there was no darkness and only light was there?
One is meaningful only with the other
It is like a 'tug of war' between good and evil that maintains the balance.
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Волк Апокалипси
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Re: Evil is Good!
June 28, 2005 - 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by isamotulekan
No,
Revolution is good and the end of it always bring success but crises or violent always end up in bad new and failure.
So, revolution is good and evil is bad (I requoute you).
This is not true at all. Many revolutions end up in a blood-bath that everyone regrets take for instance the american revolution in which thousands of people died and the country is still corrupt. Thereby i rebuke you for your lack of insight.
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Martin Tairo
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Evil is Good?
June 28, 2005 - 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by SovietDragon
When we think about wars ,genocides and all the bad things that have happened to our fair world we shudder and think "i wish that had never happened" well this is an inapropriate idea. What if the american revolution had never happened? What if there had been no Hiroshuma?
What if hitler had been killed as a child?
Yes less people would have died but the world would be a different place, less safe and more cruel. i don't condone violence but i belive that for a civilization to suceed the must be an evil. i would like to hear other people's thought on this.
Hello Soviet Dragon,
I agree with you that to some extent, a little evil is good, but your idea about genocides?? i totally disagree with you.
And maybe, you should explain how if those things wouldt have happened, the world would have been a worse place to live in.
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Волк Апокалипси
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Re: Evil is Good!
July 6, 2005 - 06:43 AM
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i do not mean to say that by any means that i approve of genocides but they teach us that intolerance leads to vicious hatred it is the lesson that conflicts show the world that i approve of.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Evil is Good!
July 6, 2005 - 07:33 AM
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"Many revolutions end up in a blood-bath that everyone regrets take for instance the american revolution in which thousands of people died and the country is still corrupt." - Soviet Dragon
Bro I am sorry but I am not going to sit here and listen to a Russian lecture us on corruption - your country has had such a problem with corruption in the last 100 years both during communism and since - you think having the mofia run private industry and the Kremlin appoint Governers isn't corrupt?
give me a break - and I don't know how else to say this but NOBODY regrets the American revolution - not even the English.
were you talking about the Civil War?
Or perhaps you were referring to the Communist revolution where a corrupt dictator named Stalin killed millions, occupied a dozen countries and it all ended in collapse and failure.
I'm sorry but that comment about the American revolution was just... you gatta be kidding - find me an American who regrets it.
Anyway as to good and evil - I think most of the time it is a matter of persepective - I think there is a difference bewtween nature - which is sometimes savage - and cruelty - cruelty is a choice.
For instance when a Lion tackles and eats a Zebra - well its good for the Lion and bad for the Zebra - is it evil??
but if the Lion sat there and terrified and tortured the Zebra needlessly - this would be evil.
Evil is really a human trait and a human idea - because we can consciously commit cruelty - we can intentially cause unneccisarry emotional and physical suffering - we can hate.
And no Devu I disagree - I do not think Evil is "necissary" - sometimes perhaps a bit to aviod greater evil as a practical matter -
lets say we are both artists trying to win a contract from a big record producer - well one has to win and one has to lose - that is not a matter of good and evil - just because you won the contract and I didn't - however if you raped my wife well that would be evil - and no she does not have to know the pain of rape just to appreciate the pleasure of love.
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Feyikemi
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Re: Evil is Good!
July 8, 2005 - 02:22 AM
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If the world would be devoid of evil, man would be devoid of morals and ethics as well. Why does man have morals and ethics in the first place? Because we know that with the absence of such, we become the opposite - EVIL. And if we get rid of these, would we even know which one is good and which is evil?
Originally posted by ProteanArt Complete good can exist without evil. I can imagine a world--in fact, I can imagine a universe--without war, without prejudice, without hate, etc.
Who determines "complete goodness"? With differences in religions and beliefs, who will point out good and evil? Are you saying that perhaps, for complete goodness to be achieved, people of the world should adhere to one belief? If so, which one?
Originally posted by ProteanArt Imagine it this way: Imagine our world were all red and had always been red. We have never seen any other color to contrast red. Would this take away from the fact that redness, in its completeness, would exist?
If you put it this way, yes it's very easy to imagine because you have appealed to visualization. But good or evil, or both are not something you reduce to, say, in comparison with something material or tangible. Even the "ultimate good" that some people claim still has shades of grey.
Originally posted by ProteanArt I think we should strive to achieve as much good in the world as possible.
Now, with this one I agree. It's actually the closest thing to the ultimate good that we can do.
Man needs evil to become good; evil brings out the best in man because it tests man's goodness and in the process, makes whatever goodness in him better. So my answer to the premise is this, EVIL is necessary, although not necessarily good.
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devu2005
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Re: Evil is Good!
July 8, 2005 - 04:45 AM
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*Zhac: "Man needs evil to become good; evil brings out the best in man because it tests man's goodness and in the process, makes whatever goodness in him better."*
I agree with this.
During the last Olympics we used to get an Ad on TV – I do not remember the exact words - but there was a verse in it that said something like this: I respect my opponent because my win would be incomplete without him. It is because of him that I push myself to the extreme limits.
Here, the opponent is just the opposite; not evil. Like evil is opposite of good, the opponent is an opposing force to me.
*ProteanArt: "Good CAN exist without evil, and I think we should strive to achieve as much good in the world as possible."*
You are right ProteanArt that Good can exist without evil. But then we would be talking about possibilities and not about reality. In our world (I do not have any reasons to believe that there are any more worlds) Good exists only with Bad. However we can always imagine of a world where there is no trace of Bad. But remember that in that world the word ‘Good’ also will cease to exist. We use that word only to compare with that which is not good.
*ProteanArt: "Complete good can exist without evil. I can imagine a world--in fact, I can imagine a universe--without war, without prejudice, without hate, etc."*
My friend, we are not just talking about actions, attitudes, and activities etc. but about everything in this world.
For example imagine a mosquito. You do not want this creature around you because it would bite you. So suppose you genetically engineer a new organism that only eats mosquitoes, thus leading to the extinction of mosquitoes. That would be good for you but not for the mosquitoes. So even when you talk about achieving ‘total good’, somewhere that has to based on ‘bad’. So how do you filter these two? This also shows that ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are relative terms.
*Luke: "lets say we are both artists trying to win a contract from a big record producer - well one has to win and one has to lose - that is not a matter of good and evil - just because you won the contract and I didn't "*
Bro, this is again like your story of Lion and Zebra. It is good for the one and not for the other. These two words are very relative.
*Luke: "- however if you raped my wife well that would be evil - and no she does not have to know the pain of rape just to appreciate the pleasure of love."*
Bro, ‘rape’ is not an opposite of ‘Love’ here. It is an extreme that is too far from true love. We should compare between ‘Love’ and ‘No Love’. Only after facing a loveless life, one can appreciate the true value of love.
*Luke: " For instance when a Lion tackles and eats a Zebra - well its good for the Lion and bad for the Zebra - is it evil??
But if the Lion sat there and terrified and tortured the Zebra needlessly - this would be evil."*
In my first post here, I was under the impression that the word ‘Evil’ used here means ‘bad’.
‘Well its good for the Lion’
Actually it is this Good that I meant.
‘And bad for the Zebra’
It is this bad for which I used the word evil.
This ‘Good’ and this ‘Bad’ (Evil), I meant was indispensable.
If you are trying to use it in some other way, I would appreciate if you define: Good, Bad and Evil.
Maybe you are trying to say that ‘Extreme Bad’ which is called as Evil is not necessary.
In that case I agree with you.
If it is so I would revise my statement as:
“Good and Bad are indispensable elements of life.
Good would be incomplete without Bad.
For example, somebody's win would be incomplete or non-existent unless somebody else loses.
Imagine if there was only one taste: sweetness and no saltiness, no chilly. Wouldn't life be incomplete? Wouldn't you get bored?
If there was no darkness and only light was there?
One is meaningful only with the other.
It is like a 'tug of war' between good and bad that maintains the balance.”
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Feyikemi
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Re: Evil is Good!
July 9, 2005 - 02:31 AM
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Originally posted by ProteanArt
The question of KNOWING what good is or what bad is without one or the other, or the point of APPRECIATING good without evil, does not take away from the fact that good can exist without evil.You keep on saying FACT. Has it actually been established that your claim is indeed a fact? Have you actually established this yourself? The word FACT is a strong word in discussions and since you've chosen to use it, the BURDEN OF PROOF is on YOU. Unfortunately, yes you're right, you have just been repeating yourself and have not proven anything by being adamant about good existing without evil and even stressing that it's a fact.
You can't argue that something is a fact if the only support you have are "What if..." or "Probably", because then, it wouldn't be a FACT but a SPECULATION, especially when you, yourself said that... If the world were all red, we probably wouldn't know it, If the world were all good, we probably wouldn't know it,[/B]
I don't think this statement has made your claim a fact.
[i]Originally posted by ProteanArt
Not one belief, but tolerance. Now, I'm very much aware of the concept of "tolerance" being taught in schools in the US. Pardon me for being blunt, but TOLERANCE in the US is the politically correct way of saying, "GRIN AND BEAR IT because we don't want any trouble." As to how I came to this statement, start another thread and I'll let you know. And I'm pointing at the system, the ideology of tolerance in the US, not to an American person per se.
You want genuine goodness? Then it's ACCEPTANCE we should promote not the West's idea of tolerance.
Originally posted by ProteanArt
I believe that even with nothing but good in the world, there would still be other individuals who would want to strive to become better. This statement contradicts all that you have put forward. If there would be nothing but good in the world, we could surmise that, in the absence of evil, every person would be happy, satisfied. So why would anyone want to strive to be better? We strive to be better because we compete with DIFFICULTIES and with other people. I don't see how a world of "complete goodness" could have difficulties or any reason for anyone to STRIVE and be BETTER than other people.
So ProteanArt, you might want to change your stand from what you believe as "the fact that good can exist without evil" to "Perhaps, good can exist without evil."
All the best.
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Max Jeffcott
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Regarding Revolutions and the Above Topics
July 11, 2005 - 02:12 AM
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The reason that good cannot exist without evil is that everyone disagrees with someone else about what is good. The Al-Qaeda believe that what they are doing is not terrorism, but protecting their beliefs. Those affected by their attacks believe that they are evil in injuring and killing innocent people. Many people do not regret the American Revolution, and some believe that slavery would have continued without it. if the American Revolution had failed, many would be affected, some for the better, some for the worse. SovietDragon, I understand your point, but Luke is also correct, though I do not understand your points of view on revolutions. They are required, but not with the amounts of violence involved. Everyone has their own view; we can not attempt to convince them not to believe their views, for that would be the ultimate evil.
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Pap-sy
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Evil idealistically is Good, but reallistically Evil is Not Good
July 11, 2005 - 08:57 AM
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you sound somewhat 'idealistic'
But, well from my own view, i think as you rightly said, for civilization to occur there must be evil.
Yes everything that has a positive side definitely has a negative side.
But not that evil is that good, just that it had to happen for such revolutions to take place. But really looking at it, it has done no good to humans, the end-product of the evil was not good at all, instead it all summounts to the conflicts that ravages countries and nations earthwide. The Hiroshima, and all-what-not that you mentioned.
So from a straight-head view, Evil is Not Good.
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devu2005
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Re: Evil is Good!
July 14, 2005 - 06:37 AM
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*ProteanArt: “How odd that you should posit science ('genetically engineer a new organism') and yet deny the existence of other worlds ('I do not have any reasons to believe that there are any more worlds'). Unless you've been living in a Hobbit hole your entire life, I think you'd have come across in your studies something along the lines of solar systems and galaxies other than our own that exist in the universe. It's quite likely that similar conditions and circumstances of our solar system and galaxy are replicated in a different space (read: place) in the universe.”*
Dear Friend,
I am a ship design engineer by profession. I have studied all the sciences and do have sufficient knowledge of our universe. When I said that I do not have sufficient reasons to believe that there are any more worlds, I used the word ‘World’ in its broadest sense. Just to imagine what I meant, think of the farthest galaxy that you can imagine. Let the point where you are sitting be the starting point, whereas the farthest point of that galaxy be the endpoint of a segment. Let the length of that segment be the radius of a sphere (not necessarily it should be sphere, I am using the word sphere only for easy imagination). Now imagine that sphere as a whole. Now do you see that sphere from outside or inside? If you are watching it from outside, then you are considering some space and yourself to exist to exist outside it. Include that space and yourself too within your sphere. Go on till you can. When you finish, whatever you have in your mind is what I called as ‘World’. That is my Hobbit hole. I meant, I do not have any reasons (read: evidences) to believe that there are any more worlds like that.
*ProteanArt: “I also think you're mistaken about what good we're talking about. We're not talking about the word 'good,' but the concept of good where good is a state of being.”*
I too am not talking about the word ‘Good’. Please try to understand that there would be no word ‘Good’ without the concept of good itself.
*ProteanArt: “Not all states of being are relative. For instance, my state of being: 'I exist.' I don't need to contrast that with 'At a particular point in time and space I did not exist.' The concept of good works in the same way. 'Good' and 'bad' are not relative terms; 'better' and 'worse' are relative terms.”*
I really don’t understand what you are trying to say here. Could you please explain it with some examples?
*ProteanArt: “For instance, for a perfect society to exist, it needs something with which to contrast its perfection, or it needs to be based on its negation.”*
Exactly! This is what I meant.
*ProteanArt: “Reality is about possibilities. In the real world we make (possible) choices. In the real world, we search for (possible) solutions to the world's problems. We imagine possibilities in the real world and we take action.”*
Not all possibilities come into reality. Existence takes a distinct course through certain possibilities, not all.
Now when I am typing this post, there is a possibility that my system CAN get a virus infection and my system may break down. Ensuing possibility is that I would not be able to post my reply. But the fact that I have posted my reply means that the numerous other POSSIBILITIES did not come into REALITY. That’s the difference between the two.
Please think about it again.
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Laura Steiner
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Re: Evil is Good!
August 1, 2005 - 12:14 PM
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Good vs. Evil-
the debate that we are having here has been going on since time began.
Ultimately, I think that one balances the other. To understand what true goodness is, is to conquer absolute evil.
Granted if Hitler was killed as a child W.W. II might not have happened. But we also might not have learned what lessons that could be learned out of that conflict. But if he was killed, how do we know that someone more evil than Hitler would not have arisen?
The French Revolution was a violent and bloody series events, and yet it brought the world the ideas of democracy: Liberté, Egalite, and Fraternité (Freedom, Fairness and Brotherhood), and I for one don't regret that.
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Tits Magee
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Evil is Good?
August 9, 2005 - 07:54 AM
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im fire.
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