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Saladin
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 11:22 AM
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Well, as a youngman already living in a Muslim country, I do not believe that ppl supporting Jihadist movements "if we use your language (coz I don't believe those guys have anything to do with the proper meaning of the word Jihad" , exceed something like 5 % of the whole world's Muslim population.
I've been to several Muslim countries such as Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey, and I've met with Muslims in Lebanon, the US, Serbia, and France... I can tell you that I came up with the conclusion above based on several readings, added to this personal experience.
The veil is not an issue to discuss here, it's the same things; Islam orders women to wear it, but doesn't order men to force women to wear it....the fact that the latter thing happens means that Muslims do not understand their religion..sadly
I think it's misguiding when you put the Iranian elections in the context of this thread. The Iranian elections shouldn't have gone otherwise; believe me, imagine you were an Iranian....just think of it...You have the US army encircling the country from the east (Afghanistan), from the west (Iraq), from the south (Qatar-KSA-UAE-Bahrain-Kuwait), from the north (Uzbekistan and Georgia)... added to the hostility in political relations between the US and Iran.
You would have chosen the candidate who has more "courageous" policies with respect to the US... it hasn't much to do with the candidates' religious views.
I think the the question has been answered and does not need any further development.
peace
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Amit अमित
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Bravo!
July 5, 2005 - 11:57 AM
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Dear Brother Ayman,
I like your approach! And hope muslim world will listen u like people in future not to those mullas.
Do some more research and find the things like -
'Concept of Fatawa'
'Heram'
'Kafir'
'Defining rape'
All these use to not only expolite women from their own religion but also from other religions. As well as fighting to convert others.
Hope for a peace!
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Saladin
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 12:23 PM
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Dear brother Amit,
I deeply appreciate your gentle say in the last post  .
However, I wouldn't be here discussing this particular issue if I dunno anything in the list of terms you have put,...the thing that I'm afraid of, is when people like you -I mean non-Muslims- don't fully understand some crucial terms like "Fatwa".
Fatwa simply means a religious "point of view" regarding a specific issue, made by a normal Muslim, with some special skills in Islamic studies.
The fact that some Muslim scholars today have extremist "fatwas" doesn't prove the absence of moderate fatwas. It depends which of them you know...and it's the Muslims' matter to choose between several fatwas regarding one issue...that's how it should be, and that how it used to be at the golden age of Islam.
The Muslim schools, throughout their history, have been not identical in their fatwas; there are extremist, moderate, and totally liberal schools. There are the Salafis, depending much on direct copying from the "salaf" or "the ancestors", there are the "Mu'tazila" depending on their minds only -they can even criticize the Qur'an-, and there are the "wasatis" -middle School-, who are trying to make it out between mind and tradition.
The most suitable type of them, is the one that keeps the fundamentals of Islam, while leaving a good space for "Ijtihad", or renewal.
peace
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hammodi
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 12:23 PM
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Ayman, 5% is a very big number. There are more than a billion Muslims in the world and 5% of them means that there are 50 million terrorists and their supporters, I really hope you’re wrong.
In my country I know people who stopped going to the mosque because the sheik there is always talking about hating everybody and he’s always cursing everybody and the people just got sick of his likes. Of course this does not happen in all the mosques.
In Mosul a moderate Sheik was forced to leave his mosque by the extremists.
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Udara
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 12:34 PM
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>"why whole muslim world support JEHADIS?" I am saying they >support, becoz they never oppose any act of terror, in >name of Islam
Bro, THis is yet again media. We have hardcore guys everywhere but sadly, media is giving them the attention than they need. THis happens in India, Sri Lanka and in Muslim countries too.
This article explains everything!
http://www.asiantruth.com/india1.htm
cheers,
Udara
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Saladin
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 12:43 PM
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Hammodi, believe me, the 5% I'm talking about is -at least- the number of Muslims that are even sympathetic with terrorists. Remeber that those 50 millions are spreaded over a large number of countries from Senegal to Indonesia, including non-Muslim countries too. The estimation is very reasonable....and the problem exists; it really depends on moderate Muslims to change the societies, and to establish a kind of "dialogue" with extremists -although it's very difficult-.
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Saladin
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 6, 2005 - 09:02 AM
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Basically Luke is right in his analysis for the causes of the Muslim World's problems today. Adding to what he said, I think that the reform of the Muslim minds won't be achieveavable unless a long-term, large-scale socio-economic reform is held by educated Muslims, who are willing to preserve the fundamentals of Islam, while keeping space for religious renewal...this won't come even in 100 years, and it might take centuries. What matters only is the chance to begin this process.
Brother Amit, Muhammad 'Abdu, one of my best Islamic scholars, who lived in the late 1800s, when he lived in France, said once: "I see here Islam without Muslims, and in the East, I see Muslims without Islam". I think this quote summarizes the problem, and points out at some of the solutions. It points out to another crucial thing; there were Muslims who knew, and said it loud, that things are not going well in the Muslim world, and since when? since the late 1800s. You still criticize Muslims, not Islam, it's OK. But rest assured that the process -I mentioned above- is taking place, but its goals won't be achieved in a day and a night.
Moving to the issue of nukes, I read a book called: "The Eve of Destruction: The Untold Story of the Yom Kippur War", by Howard Blum, in which the author presented the correspondance documents between Henry Kissinger and Golda Meir, where in one of which it was clear that Israel was on nuclear alert by deploying its nuclear arms in Dimona. Israel was on the verge of nuking Cairo on the first days of battles in October 1973 -when the Egyptians were 30 miles west of Tel-Aviv-. Only the US decision to launch the operation Nickel-Grass prevented the Israelis from using their nukes. Yes, I can tell you that I'm afraid of Israel's Nuke, maybe just as you're afraid of Iran's nukes- if it happens to have any-. But what's the best solution? I believe to be a region, and maybe a planet, without nukes....whether in Israel, Iran, Korea, even the US and China.
I don't think that Hizbollah is that kind of stupid organization to nuke Tel-Aviv or Haifa, and kill millions of Muslims accordingly....you might be more relevant when having concerns about NY, London or Paris, though I don't believe that they have ever had any activity outside of Lebanon and the Galilee, around Qiryat Shemona. Furthermore, Hassan Nasrullah, their chairperson keeps saying that their only battlefront is the area around southern Lebanon. I'm not defending Hizbollah here, but just saying facts I happened to find.
I think North Korea has too-lots of anti-US slogans for public display -just like Iran-, and that it happens to possess nukes, and that's more obvious than in the case of Iran. It's only the fear from a third world war that tackles the US from military intervention in Korea...although I believe they should be more aware of that particular front.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 6, 2005 - 11:21 AM
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aymanelhakea,
I know there are good people like you trying to help the situation - have you ever heard of the "tipping point" it is the point when the weight of the issue falls to the other side - where progress has been slow, but hits a point where it can build momentum quickly.
I would like to think this state of war in the Muslim world and between the Muslim world and the West will not last for another century - that is a rather depressing thought - hopefully a few well places revolutions will tip the scales.
France was a monarchy for a thousand years - it became a democracy in 3 years basically.
As for Korea - not necisarrily WW3 - for the simple reason that North Korea does not have the partners that Germany had - if Russia and China took their side then maybe - but I doubt China and Russia will get in an all out war with the US for Kim Jung Il's sake.
But that's not the point it does not have to get that big - even as a regional conflict it is a major problem - the US has never really picked a fight with North Korea - the North invaded the South and we helped the South.
but in the last 50 years since then the US has not created a war with North Korea despite provication - even though North Korea did not have Nukes to "defend" itself with.
this is because their missles could destroy Soel and Tokeyo - basically because it would kill alot of people particularly in Japan and South Korea - and because the Japanese and especially the South Koreans do not WANT to see any violence break out with the North Koreans.
I think the difference in concern between North Korea and Iran in the eyes of the West is that North Korea maybe a nasty dictatorship, but they are very calculating, everything is calibrated for the survival of the regieme - if they ever used a Nuke on either the US or Japan their regeime would most certianly be over - alot of things in North Korea would be over.
same thing as happened previously with Russia.
there is a great concern about the North Korea selling their technology and materials.
With Iran however they seem less calculating and more fanatically religious.
Religious zealots are often irrational, the normal "logic" does not apply to them, they might use a weapon knowing that it would mean the end of their regieme simply for the "glory of Allah" so...
Anyway aymanelhakea - I know the story about the 73' war and I have talked to a very high ranking American official about it (undersecretary of the Airforce at that time)
it is close to the way you tell it but not exactly.
As I said before the Isrealis would only use their nukes if the existance of Israel itself was threatened - they would not just randomly decide to drop one on a Muslim country because this would mean the end of Israel - the Muslim world would be up in arms - and Russia. Europe and the US would not help the Israeli if they dared such a radical act of aggression.
Also it is simply not in their interests to do so - how does it help their situation?
in 73' what was happening between Kissinger and Mier was a negotiation. The Existance of Israel WAS in danger because the Israeli army was under-equipped with conventional weapons - they were outgunned by Egypt and were litterally running out of Ammo with Egypt 30 miles from the capital.
It was Golda great mistake to leave the army without a stockpile of ammunition.
Basically Mier was saying to Kissinger - "give us more conventional ammo or we'll use some unconventional ammo" is in "if you don't give us more bullets to defend the country then we are going to be forced to use other measures."
Think about it - if the Israelis really intended to nuke Egypt then they would have just done it - they would not have told the US ahead of time as the US would only have said "no" - obviously the Isrealis knew the US would never say "ok go ahead." - the Israelis were telling the US because they wanted something - guns.
Using a nuclear weapon is not the kind of thing you tell even to your allies - the US did not tell any other nation when they dropped one on Japan - the first to hear of it were the Japanese.
it was not a step Israel wanted to take - so they "threatened" it in conversations with America so as to force Americas hand to help them with conventional arms.
Golda knew that such a step, such a thing, when done, can never be undone, that such a step would have made peace with the Muslims impossible forever.
Instead the Israelis twisted Americas arm a bit to get the guns they wanted, then used the ammo to push Egypt out of Israel and signed a peace treaty - which is ultimately the best possible outcome for the struggle.
ultimately I don't think Hollocaust survivors had it in them to use such a weapon in an act of malice - but perhaps they did as a matter of survival - they were the ultimate survivors after all.
"whoever kills a life would be as if he killed all of mankind & whoever saves a life, it would be as if he saved all of makind." -
actually I beleive that the Prophet Muhammed was here refrencing ealier holy scripture.
The root of this quote comes the Talmud, a Jewish text which predates Muhammed by a few hundred years - it translates from Hebrew basically as -
"Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world. " - Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:1
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Lucia
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 7, 2005 - 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by luke
Yeah - Sarah - I was in New York too.
you need to chill out, get all upset if you want - it does not change the fact that Osama Bin Laden has over a 60% approval rating in places like Pakistan - are THEY providing material support ... but THEY are obviously providing tacit support ... THEY are not exactly running to tell authorities where he is.
Even in major publications like AL Jazeera some radical who detonates a car bomb in the middle of a bunch of Iraqi civilians - or on an Israeli bus - or even the Chechins who took an entire Russian school hostige - is referred to as a "fighter" not a "terrorist" THEY refer to the Taliban insurgents in Afghanitan in much the same way.
"They...they...they..." they who? Are we still talking about the over 60% of Pakistanis who approve of Osama Bin Laden? Over 60% of Pakistan's population knows where Osama Bin Laden is hiding? Are you that intimately acquainted with them?
That huge, long-winded, frequently off-topic post can't possibly all have been meant in response to Sarah's so brief offended reaction!
Let's see...
"you can recognise this reality, or you can jump up and down, stomp your feet, hold your breath and try to throw a bunch of stupid accusations my way."
Seems a bit silly to say - she did none of those things, she even remained cool-headed and polite enough to correct your contrived use of the Arabic word without insulting you.
Also, I read over Sarah's short post and I did not find a single accusation in it. Moreover, I think she was rightfully offended.
and...
"rest assured Sarah I will always "dare" to tell the truth and say it like it is.
Obviously Muslims died in the 9/11 disaster as well - I know Muslims who work downtown
But I don't see how that changes the fact that there were a significant number in the Muslim world who were somewhat satosfied to see America get slapped in the face - don't kid yourself - there were people in Europe who were happy about it too."
You presume to know the minds of nations, even continents, and peoples and that is both arrogant and offensive. You read Muslims' minds, you read Europeans' minds and say that you speak the truth. You speak the "truth" for literally millions and millions of people the world over - unless you be God, what you say is not true. You habitually stray from topics in your posts and often include emotional, childish retorts, usually a far cry from truth, solely intended to insult the person you are addressing. All of that is enough in and of itself to ask, are we still to trust that you speak the truth?
When you begin asking Muslims, for example Sarah, and all the others you speak for, what they think instead of telling them what they think, then I sincerely believe your idea of truth will become much more accurate and far less provocative/offensive to all fair-minded and peaceful people.
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Servant
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Dear Luke
July 7, 2005 - 01:41 AM
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You are talking and judge without knowledge in islam,,israel if you dont know have the biggest reserve from nuclear military use..thats from your press machine..
Another thing you are talking as you are one of the ministry of israel or you are the prime minister of israel..FROM WHERE YOU KNOW THATS ISRAEL WILL NOT USE THIS NUCLEAR WEPEON?...another thing if you dont know thats israel will end in one day if you accept or me accept or not...thats not mean muslims like killing...no..we are the peace religion..our welcomes begin with PEACE..but this land should get back to their owners...as example do you accept for someone to kick you out from your home..
MR luke,islam heat any kind from terrorism,muslims also.
So please we believe in all messenger,those whom sent to jewish also to christian...but your talking is unfair..ask any kid about your balance and he will tell you.
Thanks alot
Peace
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 7, 2005 - 02:19 AM
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while we are on the subject - I'll drop a few images -
but first here is a reaction directly after Sept. 11th in the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,551086,00.html
and here is another special report from the same news source - I'll drop a quote.
"Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities, sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts of the world. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,551086,00.html
But your right Bitsy - I must think I'm God to make the simple reolization that there were people in both Europe and the Middle-east, as well as a number of other places who were quitly satosfied to see America get slapped in the face.
I am not interested in political correctness - it is the enemy of all honest inquiry.
I'll drop a pictures of reactions to the Sept 11th attacks from some corners of the Muslim world - just so you can recognise what a complete fool you are being.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 7, 2005 - 02:20 AM
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here is another
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 7, 2005 - 02:21 AM
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one more -
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 7, 2005 - 02:38 AM
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Now - as I said before - I don't think there are very many people period who actively support terrorism - but in terms of moral support unfortunately I think the number is a bit higher.
I should be able to speak such simple facts without the polical correctness police getting all upset.
are people such as these who are cheering a minority - of course - but to pretend they do not exist is simply foolish.
to ignore the problem will only cause it to grow.
My girlfriend is Russian - in the bar she was in when the planes struck people were leaping and cheering.
Does this mean all Russians were - no - but obviously some were.
when you talk about how I think I know the minds of entire continents -
that assumes that entire continents are of ONE mind on the matter - obviously they are not. I can certainly remark that there are elements within each continent which were happy about it at some level - without being in the least way presumptious.
Now Mr. Farook - you are certainly entitled to your opinions concerning Israel, I just don't share them. I think when you talk about Israel coming to an end - you are underestimating the determination of the Israelis - I have never met a people more nationalistic or more determined to stay put.
and I frankly do not know how you would dislodge them except by force of arms - just my opinion.
I also, as I have said earlier - understand perfectly well that Islam is a peaceful religion, as is Judaism as is Christianity -
but we can certainly agree that all 3 of these religions have been twisted and exploited to promote violence.
As for why I don't think Israel will not use its nukes unless for pure survival - I have already stated them - you can agree or not.
please understand that in Hebrew people greet eachother with the word "peace" also - Shalom.
I think Ayman ealrier quoted a Muslim scholar that there is sometimes Islam without Muslims and Muslims without Islam.
those who were cheering the Sept 11 attacks were obviously not "true" muslims, or at least they did not truely understand Islam - but they do exist.
In Christianity in America there was a group called the KKK who were basically terrorists - they obviously understood nothing at all about Christ.
as they were nailing him to the cross Christ said "forgive them father they know not what they do" and yet somehow these "Christians" did not understand the Irony as they were hanging and African from a tree - that they were the ones who "know not what they do" - and that Christ was with the African.
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Amit अमित
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 7, 2005 - 03:37 AM
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Add more-
Today Londan has been targated! by Al Qayada
Yesterday was a Hindu Temple in India! by Leskar-e-Tyaiba...
No critques has came against jehad with is main motive behind these attacks. Condenming individual terrorist can make any difference in mentality of common people.
Bisty, Sarah, Fraook, Amayn please note this point..
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