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Sarah
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 30, 2005 - 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by devu2005
Dear friends,
I think Mr. Luke is trying to point towards the concept of Jihad that exists in Islam. Actually most of the terrorists say that they are actually fighting for Jihad. I would like to know the real truth of the concept of ‘Jihad’ from my Islamic friends.
Thanks.
Here's a link which will give you a better explanation then I can of Jihad.
http://www.theislamreport.com/jihad.html
All I can say that Jihad is not a war to force a certain faith on to others, as many people perceive. It should never be interpreted as a way of compulsion of the belief on others, since there is an explicit verse in the Qur'an which states:"There is no compulsion in religion" Al-Qur'an: Al-Baqarah (2:256).
Jihad comes from an Arabic root word 'Jahada' which means to strive for a better way of life. Jihad should not be confused with Holy War. Jihad is not a defensive war only, but a war against any unjust regime. If such a regime exists, a war is to be waged against the leaders, but not against the people of that country. People should be freed from the unjust regimes and influences so that they can freely choose to believe and follow what life they choose as long as there is no harm against another.
Not only in peace but also in war Islam prohibits terrorism, kidnapping, and hijacking, when carried against civilians. Whoever commits such violations is considered a murderer and terrorist in Islam. During wars, Islam prohibits Muslim soldiers from harming civilians, women, children, elderly, and the religious men like priests and rabies. It also prohibits cutting down trees and destroying civilian constructions. This is the true meaning of Jihad according to Islam. People can/will take anything out of context to suit their own desires. But that does not mean that the meaning is changed.
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Martin Tairo M.
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 30, 2005 - 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by amitk
Why fallower of islam are too much rigid and conservative? Dispite nice masseges of Islam for humanity, this religion is the most misused for justifying voilence. 9/11, Plane Hijacking, Chechenya, Kashmir, Timor, Bali Blast... every event was said to be jehadi... to grow Islam. Why not libral muslims come fore?
I am not muslim but have many muslim friend who tell me a lot on Islam. They tell me that there is no part of their religion that incites faithful to go for war. They are very much againt the activities of terrorists that are hidden under the veil of Jihad and Islam.
What they are againt is the attitude that the communities around them has towards them. THey are always treated with suspicion and blamed for any misdemeanour of the terrorists.
I think the time has come when people of the world are able to separate Islam as a religion and terrorism as a crime.
Most terrorists could be muslims but not all muslims are terrorists.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 30, 2005 - 11:51 AM
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"Most terrorists could be muslims but not all muslims are terrorists."
obviously - I would say it is a very thin minority.
As I understand it there is Greater Jihad and Lesser Jihad
The Greater Jihad is an internal struggle for self purification
The lesser Jihad is an external struggle - often an armed struggle against oppression.
it is this second definition which is being preached and emraced by terrorists.
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Amit अमित
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Ismalic religious teachers are main reason of terrorism...
July 4, 2005 - 08:33 AM
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Friends,
The question I put forward is still unanswered. I would like to make clear my point that Islam is not having any logic for killing other people or going for jehad or issuing any fatwa. It is useless to write quatation from Quran and other book. I have studied Quran very well.
Main question was- "why whole muslim world support JEHADIS?" I am saying they support, becoz they never oppose any act of terror, in name of Islam. If educated and libral muslim can watch things happening like this, no wonder whole world will perceive that terror is inbuilt with Islam! Incidently few things happend during this discussion-
1. Elections in Iran shows the inclination on Muslims towards the extremist.
2. A incidence of rape of a muslim women took place in India. The rapist was her father-in-law. She protected it, and medical report proved that she was raped. And she complained to police, but inbetween a fatwa from the MULLs who happened to be religions teacher came. And according to it- she was punished and not allowed to live with her husband.
If this was case with any other religion that rapist father-in-law might have been in jail by now. Whole muslims of India are supporting this, even though it is injustice. whole analysis is here-
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=73748
3. Forcing women to wear veil.
4. Percentage of 'Missing women' is very high in muslim nations. In china it is high in number, demographers blame it for one chlid policy. but percentage wise Pakistan has highest percentage of 'missing women'. It is around 15%. Girl chlid get killed in womb or her infant stage.
5. Interestingly, even educated muslim women support all exteam exploitations of women in mulim wolrd to enjoy individual better life otherwise they will face fatwa.
Shame on mullas!!! who mislead whole muslim world....
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Sarah
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Ismalic religious teachers are main reason of terrorism...
July 5, 2005 - 01:00 AM
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Originally posted by amitk
Friends,
The question I put forward is still unanswered. I would like to make clear my point that Islam is not having any logic for killing other people or going for jehad or issuing any fatwa. It is useless to write quatation from Quran and other book. I have studied Quran very well.
Main question was- "why whole muslim world support JEHADIS?" I am saying they support, becoz they never oppose any act of terror, in name of Islam. If educated and libral muslim can watch things happening like this, no wonder whole world will perceive that terror is inbuilt with Islam! Incidently few things happend during this discussion-
1. Elections in Iran shows the inclination on Muslims towards the extremist.
2. A incidence of rape of a muslim women took place in India. The rapist was her father-in-law. She protected it, and medical report proved that she was raped. And she complained to police, but inbetween a fatwa from the MULLs who happened to be religions teacher came. And according to it- she was punished and not allowed to live with her husband.
If this was case with any other religion that rapist father-in-law might have been in jail by now. Whole muslims of India are supporting this, even though it is injustice. whole analysis is here-
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=73748
3. Forcing women to wear veil.
4. Percentage of 'Missing women' is very high in muslim nations. In china it is high in number, demographers blame it for one chlid policy. but percentage wise Pakistan has highest percentage of 'missing women'. It is around 15%. Girl chlid get killed in womb or her infant stage.
5. Interestingly, even educated muslim women support all exteam exploitations of women in mulim wolrd to enjoy individual better life otherwise they will face fatwa.
Shame on mullas!!! who mislead whole muslim world....
Okay, I have a few things to bring to your attention before I start.
Jihad, is not a terrorist act. Read my last post on this discussion board.
“"why whole muslim world support JEHADIS?" I am saying they support, becoz they never oppose any act of terror, in name of Islam.”
A) Do not associate Jiahd with acts of terroisim.
B) Do not generalize. I do not support terroisim. It would be more wise to state ‘some Muslism’ not all muslims.
"The question I put forward is still unanswered."
What is your question? Is it why do some Muslims support terrorist acts even thou it is against Islam? Well, you have to understand that there are bad people in every religion, culture, group, etc. All I have to say is terrorism is a major sin in Islam. Harming innocent people is against Islam and according to Islamic ruling; they will have to face punishment on the Day of Judgment. What these ‘Muslims’ are doing is similar to hwo some ‘Christians’ kill abortion doctors and burn down bortion clinics in the name of God. You get me?
“Interestingly, even educated muslim women support all exteam exploitations of women in mulim wolrd to enjoy individual better life otherwise they will face fatwa.”
Even educated Muslim Women? I would hesitate to call them educated. And again, do not generalize. I am an educated Muslim woman, so is my mom, aunts, cousins. We do not agree with those acts and we would no adhere to exploiting another persons freedom to make our life better. That is selfish and disgusting and is also another major sin is Islam.
Have to face Fatwa??
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 01:40 AM
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Ayman - the election of a hardliner in Iran is relevant particularly as Iran is basically the greatest state sponsor of terrorism -
there is a reason no one is going to let Iran go nuclear - because of their religious government could well do something fanatical and crazy with the weapon - like give it to Hez Bullah to nuke Israel.
I think the question Iranians should be asking themselves - is "how did we come to be so isolated?" "Why is our economy is such dire straits?"
and then ask themselves why they chose someone whose policies and rhetoric are bound to send them on a collision course with the West - not just the US but Europe.
Not smart - you are right they are surrounded - perhaps it is time they struck a more concilitory tone in their policies and rhetoric - instead of selecting to escalate their troubles.
They are asking for trouble and may well get it.
As for support - I think perehaps in the Muslim world there is not so much outward support (like giving money, arms etc) as there is general apathy towards doing anything about it.
It seems that there were probably many Muslims watching 9/11 on their TV's quietly cheering the disaster - even though it clearly escalated violence between the Muslim world and the West.
This it seems is the problem really - the larger Muslim population has to decide that they will not tolerate any such acts - and get proactive about stopping extremists - extremists preachers, Clerics, Schools etc.
It seems that much of the rigid and intolerant form of Islam - that teaches that all non-beleivers are enemies of Islam - has to do with Madrassas and the schools and education systems.
I think Muslims needs to start shutting these schools down - or at least more closely monitoring what they are implanting into impressionable young minds.
Many of the 9/11 highjackers, jihadists etc - are young men who come out of a Medrassa.
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Amit अमित
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Media providing a cusion to grow
July 5, 2005 - 04:53 AM
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Yes Udara,
You are right, in India extremist are growing. And Media is helping them to grow. Our fallow TIG member and friend Ajay has written rightly in this artile.
Quoting from that article - "The Indian majority-bashing media conveniently ignored these and other stories and went on a campaign to malign every Hindu in India, based on what happened in those three days. To win western approval, the Indian media has continued its attacks on the country's Hindu community."
Todays news- An attack take place on a temple in Ayodhya by Muslim extreamist just got a corner place in media...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1160701.cms
Same time they are still hitting the bush for Babari masjid, which was made after demolishion of historical temple.
We can see how actively things are happening, even start from this disscussion lot of happeneings took place by muslim extremists, globaly and locally.
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Umair
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 05:07 AM
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I would like to jump in to this discussion. Well Mr amitk, your views regarding the link between muslims and terrorism is greatly inflenced by the media. if you look at this from another angle, youll realise that the majority of the terrorist attacks infact take place on muslim soil inflicting great damage on the muslims therefore muslims are the first to condemn any act of terror(whether by so called muslims or hindus or christians or anyone)
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Servant
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!! Answer Plz
July 5, 2005 - 05:10 AM
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Luke
I didnt complete your post,,But i want to ask you,,iran nuclear ?? you think iran will use it crazy against israel ok...but what do you think israel will do in the nuclear own it??use it slowly against iran or any country....so is it ok to israel to own nuclear and not ok to iran???? look am mad person and you are mature just think in this calculation is it fair...
If you dont know what israel soldiers did in palstine or doing so you must know??!! dont tell me about 9-11 coz its away from islam and muslim can accept it.
Muslims cant kill ok??we have ethics .... israel have ethics??if you dont read will durant book he is jewish,he wrote civilization story ok read it and see what he said about the history of jewish.
I hate kill also i wish if this world will be clean from any nuclear use,,,but at the same time thats must be for all nation not for iran only or arab only,,,if you are interested in help this world let us begin in usa,the israel the all the world will be lived in peace.
Peace
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Amit अमित
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 05:32 AM
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welcome umair!
Before making comment on my last posting, please read all postings since start of this theard. Our discussion is not on India and Pakistan, Hindu or Muslim, Mejority or Minority.
Please take a pain of reading all postings before u can make a comment.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 06:26 AM
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Mr. Farook,
I think the reason there is less concern about Israel having the bomb is that at this point they have proven that they would not use it unless there was no other choice -
when Egypt was 30 miles from Tel Aviv the Israelis held back their Nukes.
Iran on the other hand was recently marching ballistic missles throguh their streets chanting "death to America" and the missles had "wipe Israel off the map" written on them.
Has Israel paraded missles through Tel Aviv with such threats to Iran? No.
The problem with Iran in particular is that they have such extensive ties to terrorism - Israel is occupying Palestine certainly yes - but European nations are not concerned that Israel will give a bomb to a radical Jewish group to Nuke Paris.
They are concerned that Iran will give a bomb to a radical Islamic group to nuke London, or Washington.
Iran has strong ties with Al Qaeda, Hez Bullah, Hamas, the Chechen rebels, basically radical Islamic roups of all shapes and sizes - this is the concern and the danger.
Right now Pakistan has Nukes - no one is too concerned because Musharrif is relatively stable, moderate and sane.
But if he was overthrown and a radical theocracy like Iran's was put in his place - then the concern would be very great indeed.
Basically Israel is less of a concrn because they would only use them if the existance of Israel was threatened very closely -
Iran would use these weapons to try to create anarchy in the western world and change the world order.
that and hey - I live in a country the Iranians call "the Great Satan" - so of course this country they hate so much will not want them to have the most destructive weapon in the world.
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Umair
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 07:13 AM
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thanks amitk.
well ive already read your note and was replyiing in that context. not all followers of islam are rigid , its just that nowadays extremists are enjoying comparitively better support and let me assure you, they definetely dont have the syupport of all the muslims. As far as liberal muslims are concerned they certainly are present and are trying their level best to undo the damage
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Sarah
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 07:19 AM
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Originally posted by luke
As for support - I think perehaps in the Muslim world there is not so much outward support (like giving money, arms etc) as there is general apathy towards doing anything about it.
It seems that there were probably many Muslims watching 9/11 on their TV's quietly cheering the disaster - even though it clearly escalated violence between the Muslim world and the West.
Many of the 9/11 highjackers, jihadists etc - are young men who come out of a Medrassa.
Excuse u. How dare you!! You need to realize that many Muslims were murdered during the 9-11 attack. Okay, I am from Queens, New York. Was born and raised there. That is my home town. Now who are u referring to as being the ‘Many Muslims’? Do not associate terrorist acts as a part of Islam or as a part of the Muslim community. You should research Islam before making such rude accusations.
By the way, Madrasa is the word ‘school’ in Arabic.
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Amit अमित
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 07:53 AM
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Originally posted by sarah-nasser
[QUOTE]Originally posted by luke
[B]
As for support - I think perehaps in the Muslim world there is not so much outward support (like giving money, arms etc) as there is general apathy towards doing anything about it.
It seems that there were probably many Muslims watching 9/11 on their TV's quietly cheering the disaster - even though it clearly escalated violence between the Muslim world and the West.
Many of the 9/11 highjackers, jihadists etc - are young men who come out of a Medrassa.
Excuse u. How dare you!! You need to realize that many Muslims were murdered during the 9-11 attack. Okay, I am from Queens, New York. Was born and raised there. That is my home town. Now who are u referring to as being the ‘Many Muslims’? Do not associate terrorist acts as a part of Islam or as a part of the Muslim community. You should research Islam before making such rude accusations.
By the way, Madrasa is the word ‘school’ in Arabic.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Blindly supproting any faith cause blunderness. This is what happeneing with jehadis. Sarah, I am really sad to know that you are denying that fact without any reason.
1. U born and brought up in NY, so you can enjoy the beauty of veil and can practice hard core Islam as U feel ethenicity over there. What about a poor rural women who has to work in agriculture feilds in order to meet her needs. These teachers of Madarsa forcing them to wear it, which is highly inconvinience 4 them and cuases accencet while threshing and harvesting.
2. Forget 9/11 for a moment, In India there came a fatwa from mullas for those 25 muslims who sang Indian National Song finally they all apolosised for doing so!!! do u still support those fatawa and veils.
3. Beside Iran and Arab countries, Pakistan and Bangladesh are having state sponsered terrorist camps just in name of jehad and this is extended to Indonesia and Bali. One cabinate minister in Pak govt. information minsiter was running such camps by luring muslims youths from Pakistan Occupied Kashmir just in Name of Jihad and Cleaning whole other religion from the Earth[how rediculus]
4. Do an experiment- Go and preform Namaz (Prayer) in a Mosque.
5. Rather fighting with otheres who are showing you, you should think over on issue that How the voice of common and peace loving Muslim can out come those terrorist.
Amen!
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
July 5, 2005 - 09:06 AM
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Yeah - Sarah - I was in New York too.
you need to chill out, get all upset if you want - it does not change the fact that Osama Bin Laden has over a 60% approval rating in places like Pakistan - are they providing material support - mostly no - but they are obviously providing tacit support for his activities - they are not exactly running to tell authorities where he is.
There has classically been an apathy toward dealing with extremists in the Muslim world - that is why the problem has gotten so out of hand in the first place.
Even in major publications like AL Jazeera some radical who detonates a car bomb in the middle of a bunch of Iraqi civilians - or on an Israeli bus - or even the Chechins who took an entire Russian school hostige - is referred to as a "fighter" not a "terrorist" They refer to the Taliban insurgents in Afghanitan in much the same way.
you can recognise this reality, or you can jump up and down, stomp your feet, hold your breath and try to throw a bunch of stupid accusations my way.
rest assured Sarah I will always "dare" to tell the truth and say it like it is.
Obviously Muslims died in the 9/11 disaster as well - I know Muslims who work downtown - hell much of Downtown New York real estate is owned by Iranians who have defected to the US - look it up.
But I don't see how that changes the fact that there were a significant number in the Muslim world who were somewhat satosfied to see America get slapped in the face - don't kid yourself - there were people in Europe who were happy about it too.
there is little doubt that terrorist behavior is endorsed often where Israel is concerned because there it is seen as "freedom fighting" -
the problem it seems came about when those tactics used (often invented) against the Israeli occupation were more widely used - when they spread to other conflicts - suddenly it got to be a much bigger, more global problem.
And suddenly the moral distinction became unclear - when the Palestinians used such tactics - many in the Muslim world saw this a legitimate resistance to occupation - But the Chechins start using the same tactics... then there is AL Qaeda striking out at the West -
where does it end?
I think this is how the problem grew and got out of hand in the Muslim world, because there was a certain apathy toward it. Now the Muslim world is awakening to a real problem with extremism.
Now understand Sarah - I would never think to accuse the all Muslims of supporting terrorism, there is obviously only a very thin minority enguaged in actively either perpretraiting or providing material support for terrorism - I think it is much less then the %5 figure I heard earlier - probably closer to 0.5%.
unfortunately I think the number who queitly support it to some degree is much higher. And I think even higher is those who find it a difficult morally ambigious line - that support the actions of groups like Hamas and Hez Bullah, but are troubled by the actions of groups like Al Qaeda.
The ones who are searching for a distinction beween "freedom Fighters" and "terrorists" where one kind of car bomber is acceptable, maybe even a hero - and another is a viscious criminal.
That is why there is a lack of moral clarity in the larger Muslim World concerning this. It does not help that there are all forms of contradicting fatwas concerning this kind of activity.
I understand perfectly well that Islam is not only a religion that preaches peace - but Islam itself means, and the religion strives for the most pure and rich kind of peace - spiritual peace, spiritual surrender.
obviously just here in this discussion I am surrounded by good Muslim people.
But the Muslim world now is facing a critical problem which is tearing it apart - extremism, radicalism. A problem which has grown greatly over the last 50 years. It has been able to grow because of a lack of moral clarity, and because of apathy - And because there is always a latent desire when you are disenfranchised and powerless, to see the powerful brought to their knees.
I would suggest Sarah - that if you want to restore Islam to the reputation it deserves as a great and peaceful religion - then answer is not to pretend the problem does not exist - or try to be self-rightous and hide behind cries of racism whenever someone tries to point out real issues -
but rather to recognise and face up to the problem - ignoring it, pretending it does not exist - that is how this grew to be such a problem in the first place.
I am going to quote Ibn Warraq here "If the intellectual is really committed to the notion of truth and free inquiry, then he or she cannot stop the inquiring mind at the gates of any religion -- let alone Islam. And yet, that is precisely what has happened with Islam, criticism of which in our present intellectual climate is taboo.
The reason why many intellectuals have continued to treat Islam as a taboo subject are many and various, including:
* political correctness leading to Islamic correctness
* the fear of playing into the hands of racists or reactionaries to the detriment of the West’s Muslim minorities
* commercial or economic motives
* feelings of post-colonial guilt -- where the entire planet’s problems are attributed to the West’s wicked ways and intentions
* plain physical fear
* and intellectual terrorism of writers such as Edward Said
Said not only taught an entire generation of Arabs the wonderful art of self-pity (if only those wicked Zionists, imperialists and colonialists would leave us alone, we would be great, we would not have been humiliated, we would not be backward) but intimidated feeble Western academics, and even weaker, invariably leftish, intellectuals into accepting that any criticism of Islam was to be dismissed as orientalism, and hence invalid."
"How do they think reformation will come about if not with criticism? The proposed 2001 legislation by the British Labour government to protect Muslims, while well-intentioned, is woefully misguided. It will mean publishers will be even more reluctant to take on works critical of Islam. If we stifle rational discussion of Islam, what will emerge will be the very thing that political correctness and the Government seek to avoid: virulent, racist populism. If there are further terrorist acts then irrational xenophobia will be the only means of expression available. We also cannot allow Muslims subjectively to decide what constitutes "incitement to religious hatred," since any legitimate criticism of Islam will then be shouted down as religious hatred."
I am not going to be politically correct - Sarah, you can get as upset as you want.
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