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Amit अमित
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Islam - no reason for terror!
June 19, 2005 - 05:23 AM
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Why fallower of islam are too much rigid and conservative? Dispite nice masseges of Islam for humanity, this religion is the most misused for justifying voilence. 9/11, Plane Hijacking, Chechenya, Kashmir, Timor, Bali Blast... every event was said to be jehadi... to grow Islam. Why not libral muslims come fore?
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Saladin
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 19, 2005 - 08:47 AM
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Dear brother Amit,
I want to thank you for opening this important topic, don't let your Indian environment misguide you. Muslims in India are a minority, and most minorities tend to cause disturbances. In the UAE, a lot of Indians come deliberately to enjoy a liberal atmosphere, in a Muslim country.
However, blaming Islam is not a good justification for what happens today as global terrorism. It had happened in the medieval ages that people were tortured, brutalized and slaughtered in Europe under the name of the "inquisitions". It happened also that the Arab world was invaded under the name of "Holy wars" or "Crusades".
Any religion can be manipulated by extremist groups - who exist in every religion and every ideology - to justify what they do, not only Islam.
When Islam was well understood and practised in the early Caliphate, Muslims were the world's leaders in civilization, history shows it.
The problem lies more in the deliberate manipulation of sacred inscriptions, whether Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Sikh, to justify anything that is wrong....
please think of it!
ur brother Ayman!
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Amit अमित
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you are most welcome..
June 20, 2005 - 05:52 AM
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 brother Ayman,
I am not agree that minority causes distrubances, and in case of Indian Muslims, They are the most libral in the world. A few of them defame whole community.
My curiosity was, why religious leader can't resist misuse the name of Islam? you have any idea?
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sudha
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 21, 2005 - 02:48 AM
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hey ayman,
thats exactly the point of this thread..the fact that liberal muslims are not doing anything to change the image the excesses of ur religion have made of u people the world over....
what u say about indians enjoying ur liberal atmosphere is true but not an actual answer to this question...
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Amit अमित
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 25, 2005 - 11:38 AM
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ya shudha is right!
Thats what I wanted to convey.... Unlike other religions, Islamic world is welcoming extreamist day by day and surprizingly this tendency is getting popular. Recent elections in Iran are clear indication of that. If Prophet Mohammad were alive today, He too would had same worry.
I don't know How long the Mulla comunity misuse learnings of Prophet Mohammad.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 26, 2005 - 01:02 AM
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I agree that any religious can (and often is) manipulated for the purpose of violence.
I do not agree that Minorities by nature cause disturbance.
I think the reason religion has been misused is that it is based on "faith" - essentially dogmatic beleif is encouraged, logic and reason are not an essential part of religion - rather "feeling" is -
and so a clever speaker can twist the words and create dogmatic beleifs and essentially blend his own words with the words of the Torah, Bible, or Koran - and thus make "God" endorse their views.
The other problem is that when people beleive that they are on a mission from God or Allah - that they are doing "God's will" - then they are justified in using any tactics and means to acheive their ends - killing innocent people, random acts of violence - even brutal beheadings as we have seen in Iraq were "justified" because of the "holy" nature of their struggle.
What I will say that is specific to Islam is the concept of Jihad, the Christian concept of a Crusade is not exactly the same.
Somehow the concept of Jihad lends itself very well to terrorist activites.
But basically every religion - if properly understood - is about peace and tolerance - anyone who tells you it is about exclusion, intolerance, hatred and violence - obviously does not understand the religion very well.
I do also agree that Moderate Muslims MUST assert themselves more - the more that the moderates do to root out the Extremists among them - the less they will find enemies and foreign armies brought to their doorstep.
also - beleive me these fundamentalists will NOT lead to economic growth or opportunity.
on another note - I find the Iranians choce for a new president very disturbing - it is a step that will isolate Iran and bring them into direct confrontation with the West.
I am concerned - the new Iranian president looks like he is spoiling for a fight with the western powers - what foolishness - this can only lead to ruin for Iran.
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Nedal Zahran
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 26, 2005 - 04:51 AM
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I think Ayman is right. In the Muslim world we learn to glorify so many things about religion and history that we are not fully aware of. This is the problem of an obselete educational system that goes to extremes to ensure subjugation and blind trust in corrupt leaders. I wonder how many Arab leaders do not try to trace their ancestry to the Prophet. It is a source of increased ligitmacy for them.
Many opposition groups at the same time see this link with religion as a source of legitmacy as well. That's why you find groups of the sort stemming out from the oppression I breifly mentioned giving their militant activity a religious cover. I also believe these to be a minority among muslims.
However, mixing between religious symbols and military activity is not monopolised by Islam. Many religions rely on these symbols in gaining support for the cause. Like the Sinhalese and Tamils in Sri Lanka, some Sikh groups in India, the facists of Europe, Zionists in Israel, the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland and I am sure the list is endless over history.
Now Why is it so obvious that a great number of the events and organisations are linked to Islam, I think there are three reasons:
1. Depneding on whatever definition of terrorism you use you will get different results. The greatest number of deaths in the recent years has been cause by Bush's Messianic wars in Iraq and afghanistan. Are these considered terrorism? of course yes? Zionism has created one of the longest ongoing conflicts in modern history, and used various militant means to achieve its goal of establishing an ethnically exclusive jewish state in Palestine (by practically resorting to mass ethnic cleansing activities). Is this terrorism? of course yes. so If you modify your definition you will not end up with a list that is mainly composed of Muslim organisations.
2. Recent Islamophobia in the west determins what kind of news makes it to mainstream media and what doesn't. Many Arab and Muslim intellectual put theirlives on the line by critcising certain groups. much opposition has been sounded in the Muslim world against many of these groups, but this never makes it to the western media simply because blood is more suiting for a news piece than words. So you never hear about it.
3. Muslims compose at least 20% of the world's population, that is why any small proportion is likely to include relatively large numbers relative to other religious groups.
there maybe other reasons like seeing this group or that as a saviour from current economic and social problems and thus supporting them with relative ignorance to their agenda.
In general, it is never the religion that is inducive of terrorism, it is people... this type of 'wrong people' can be found in all religions alike.
Namaste.
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Saladin
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 26, 2005 - 07:44 AM
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Yes Nedalz, u made it to the point!
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devu2005
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 26, 2005 - 10:20 AM
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Luke is right in saying that all religions are about human welfare of which peace and tolerance are essentially important contributing factors. You don't find such extremism of that length among Indian muslims. Atleast among those Indian muslims who get proper education. But when some people are exposed to certain influences, they get brainwashed and thouroughly enjoy religious fanaticism.
So I feel education is the key.
If not a proper scientific education, at least a proper education of their true religion.
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Saladin
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 26, 2005 - 11:05 AM
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Dear friends, I said that ""most" minorities tend to cause disturbances", not all of them, and not in the sense that minorities are always bad, but in the sense that troubles happen where there's a conflict between a minority and a majority. You can see it yourself in Northern Ireland, the Balkans, Caucasia, Iraq, Lebanon,Rwanda, Burundi, Côte d'Ivoire, China, and everywhere... and it's logic that Amit who lives in India knows much about India's Muslims than I do.
Absolutely Luke you are right about what you said about ppl pretending to exert "God's will"....as being the most unfounded thing to say.
But I have some remearks on your interpretations of Jihad.
Jihad or جهاد in Arabic is derived from the word Juhd/جهد, meaning "effort" or "struggle". That is the meaning of the word in Arabic. The majority of Muslim scholars say that Jihad means simply the act of "defending the Muslim community", others say that Jihad is a general term referring to one's struggle against self-desires, while extremists say it's "terrorism" as Luke mentioned.
Unfortunately, the world media concentrates on minor militant Muslim groups, that have a particular extremist interpretation of Jihad not different at all from terrorism.
Though, this does not mean that this is the official meaning of "jihad" in Islamic religion. There are a lot of new moderist Muslim scholars, today, though few, but their voice is being well heard in the Muslim world, such as Amr Khaled, Harun Yahya, and before them Muhammad 'Abduh, Jamaluddin Al-Afghani, and Rasheed Reda, not depending on dogmatic "blind faith", but emphasizing scientific, moral, ethical, economic, social, and technological development.....moderists and extremists exist in Islam....it depends on which of them light is being thrown by the world media...and it depends on Muslims themselves to decide which path they wanna choose if they want to develop and overcome the critical situation extremists have put them in.
I think this won't come unless -as devu2005 said- proper moderate education about religion would take place, and that won't be fesible without a true social reform in the Muslim world.
Amr Khaled has begun a massive campaign called "Life Makers" recently, involving Muslims and non-Muslims, to create a socio-economic reform in the Arab world, and I think this is just the beginning of "resisting the misuse done in the name of Islam" :
http://www.amrkhaled.net/acategories/categories79.html
The thread title was "Islam is a reason of terror?", so, as a final comment, a person like me believes that Islam is not just a personal individual relationship between man and the Divine, but, it's an overall system and ideology regulating life. But, while any "Ideology" can be misused,we can't say always that it's the fault of that particular ideology, especially when the responsibility should be associated to some individuals with certain intersts far from the core values of that ideology.
Even democracy itself is being daily abused in Guantanamo Bay and in Abu-Ghureib.......but is it democracy's fault?
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devu2005
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Islam - no reason for terror!
June 29, 2005 - 01:41 AM
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Friends,
I would like to quote here:
*ayamanelhakea: “The thread title was "Islam is a reason of terror?", so, as a final comment, a person like me believes that Islam is not just a personal individual relationship between man and the Divine, but, it's an overall system and ideology regulating life. But, while any "Ideology" can be misused,we can't say always that it's the fault of that particular ideology, especially when the responsibility should be associated to some individuals with certain intersts far from the core values of that ideology.”*
*Nedalz: “In general, it is never the religion that is inducive of terrorism, it is people... this type of 'wrong people' can be found in all religions alike.
Namaste.”*
I agree with both these statements.
You can never everything on any particular religion that is formed in good faith for the welfare of humanity. And that too just fro the activities of some people who are born in that religion but are not true followers of that religion.
In fact the region that we call Islamic world has been a witness to a lot political turbulence that dates back to thousands of years. So this region has not been able to settle down politically and culturally as opposed to say, countries like USA. In their whole history you do not see any aggressions on their country barring things like 1) Pearl Harbor 2) 9/11. Due to the peace that they enjoyed in their land they have been able to contribute largely to the greater cause of humanity.
But you don’t see the same in our region, particularly, stretch from Turkey and Egypt to Pakistan has witnessed more aggressions compared to other countries. Even the aggressions that were done on India since Alexander were only from this side. We have Himalayas on our northern side to guard us. The tussle that you see between India and Pakistan is not so recent as of 1947 but it has its roots in the long history of the subcontinent. All the aggressions on India, whether Alexander, Turks, Persians or Arabs came from this stretch from Gujarat region of India to Kashmir region that forms the Indo – Pakistan border. The point that I am trying to covey is that even Pakistan which is a Muslim state today has witnessed very turbulent political period. So it is political instability that haunts this region more than the religion that they have chosen for themselves. If they are allowed to lead a peaceful life they can contribute to the scientific world as much as Europe or America has done.
But by saying this I am in no way trying to underestimate the contribution of Islamic world to humanity. In fact Egypt, the land of pyramids is in itself a wonder for me. I just wonder how they could have created those massive structures that are among the wonders of the world without any cranes, without today’s technology. Arabian Nights are some of the most beautiful things that I know in this world.
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Saladin
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 29, 2005 - 02:40 AM
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Yes devu2005, you are absolutely right, but there are some small things to consider:
1) To be hit in your own country is not the only form of political instability....any government decision that creates a big dilemma, creates in fact a political instability....like the mass protests that accompanied the Vietnam and the current Iraq wars.
2) Europe too has experienced a tough political instability in the last centuries, more than the middle east....moreover, the hsitory of America is not that long, comapred to the middle east....however, the USA was exposed to a variety of political instabilities: the revolution, the Civil war, the Spanish-American war, border tensions with Mexico in the late 1910s "Pancho Villa!", US presence in many countries in the Caribbean and central Ameria: Nicaragua, Honduras,Grenada, Cuba, Panama, Colombia,... the economic crash in the 1930s and its political drawbacks,added to less frequent terrorist attacks...that ended by 9-11...
3) As you said; both Muslims and non-Muslims contributed in the evolution of human sciences...but the procedure has always been alternating in terms of whom to hold the scientific lead; first it was the old civilizations of the Middle and far East, then the Greeks, Persians, Indians,Chinese, and Romans, then the Middle East again "Muslims", then the Renaissance and the current western civilization...
peace on you all
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 29, 2005 - 03:31 AM
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Certainly any religion can be twisted to call for "holy war" "crusade" "jihad" etc.
At this particular moment it seems to be infecting the Muslim community more then others - I think this stems from a fundamental lack of secular education -
It reminds me of the American South with the KKK - buch of ignorant, uneducated racists basically - I think with the Islamic extremists you have much the same thing - racism certainly seems the order of the day.
aymanelhakea is of course right - it has not been all calm in America - actually a rather turbulant history - he forgot to mention the resignation of Nixon and the civil rights movement.
But the US was always a democracy since its birth (which makes it unique) - so aside from the civil war we have always been able to find a (more or less) peaceful means of resolving our internal struggles.
I think education is really the key - more then the turbulance - my friend was laso correct in pointing out that the Europeans are far from having a peaceful history -
2 world wars, revolutions etc it has been a very turbulant continent - and yet their sciences have thrived despite it.
I think this has to do with the assertion of reason over religion and the shedding of theocracy.
As I have stated previously - the greatest mistake the Arab world ever made was rejecting the Printing Press as an illegal peice of infidel technology - since that point the Western world has passed the Muslim.
The theocracies of the west could not suppress ideas once literacy exploded.
but we are digressing - the answer to the question of the thread is both yes and no.
it is not unique to Islam to be abused for purpose of fanatics and madmen - all religions have suffered this disgrace unfortunately.
but it is true that Islam is being preverted to encourage extremism at this point.
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devu2005
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 29, 2005 - 05:19 AM
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Dear friends,
*Luke: “but we are digressing - the answer to the question of the thread is both yes and no.”*
I think Mr. Luke is trying to point towards the concept of Jihad that exists in Islam. Actually most of the terrorists say that they are actually fighting for Jihad. I would like to know the real truth of the concept of ‘Jihad’ from my Islamic friends.
Thanks.
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Saladin
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Re: Islam - no reason for terror!
June 30, 2005 - 06:57 AM
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I'm really proud of you Luke, because you know that much about Islam: greater and lesser Jihad...However, I think what Sarah Nasser was speaking about meant the lesser Jihad.
Second, you associate between secular education and the European renaissance, which is a true sequence...but this matter is different if you look at the history of the early Muslim civilization, you will find that the periods when Muslims led the world in sciences and technologies are those periods when they practised Islam as a whole life system, not just a personal relation between human and God, that's not interfereing with daily life......but most important, they practised it "liberally".
The first Muslims did not prosper until they began translating the old manuscripts, books, sciences of what you call "infidels"; who were by that time the Christian Byzantines, Zoroastrian Persians, and Hindu Indians...
Only when extremist ideas -that are not matching the core values of Islam- began to find their way to the Muslim world, the problem bagan to take place....and the lead was rightfully offered to the west.
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