« BACK TO FORUM
 Author |
 Post
|
 |
|
Brent
Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 17 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male & 28
Country: Australia
Province/State: Victoria
City: Melbourne
|
The Australian Assylum Seekers -the Facts and Issues
August 31, 2001 - 09:46 AM
|
|
I've been really impressed with the discussion which has been taking place on my updates page. It gives an idea of the potential of TakingITGlobal - especially when it comes to international issues.
I decided to throw this out to the Discussion Pages to bring more people into the debate.
(For those of you who are unfarmiliar with what has been happening, check out my last few updates at http://updates.takingitglobal.org/read/brenthodgson )
So, what have we got so far?
Facts:
A number of Assylum Seekers recently set off from southern Indonesia for Australia
When the leaky ferry (only fit to carry 40 people) started sinking midway between Australia and Indonesia, the closest ship in the area was called in to give assistance.
In compliance with International Shipping Laws, the Norwegian Freighter "Tamba" picked up the refugees, believing they would simply take them to the nearest port (Christmas Island)
Neither Australia nor Indonesia are/were allowing the "Tamba" to dock at any of their ports, or enter their Territorial Waters
With thanks to the defiant Captain, the Tamba is currently in Australian Waters. A number of Queens Counsels (Top Lawyers) from Melbourne, Australia, are currently in court applying Australian laws to these Assylum Seekers in an attempt to "end the inhumane treatment, and allow these people to be properly detained within a fully equipped Australian detention centre" (where the refugees would then need to be processed, as opposed to sending them back)
There are somewhere between 400 and 500 refugees currently on the "Tamba"
The majority of these people are Muslim (believed to be from Afganistan and Iraq)
The Politics
Currently, Australia does not accept visa applications from both Afganistan and Iraq.
Last year, only had 40 immigrants from the Pakistani-Afganistan border had their visa applications accepted to come to Australia - largely due to UN Beaurocracy in the region.
Australians are becoming increasingly worried about immigrants - particularly those who come to Australia illegally.
They are seen as a burden on the economy
They are often believed to be lazy, and only coming to Australia to live off Welfare
And the immigrants who do come to Australia are often accused of contributing to Gang related crimes
Many believe this is simply underlying racial tensions - especially tensions dealing with Muslims
Other Tid-bits
Australia has sent back to Kabal many people from northern Afganistan when their applications are denied. Most of whom are believed to have been executed on arrival by the ruling "Taliban".
Australia's growth rate is growing at a rate close to 1.1 people for every 1 person (without factoring in immigration).
Currently, Australia has a population of 18 million people, and is believed to be sustainable enough to support at least 25 million people (another 7 million people)
There are estimated to be 35 million people seeking refuge and assylum worldwide.
Anything you disagree with? Any points you want to make? Anything you want to add?
I guess I'll start this one off..
I was on the Prime Minister's web-site yesterday, and even after this stand on immigration, I saw this;
"For those who’ve come across the seas,
we’ve boundless plains to share"
It then goes on to say;
"With courage let us all combine
To Advance Australia Fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia Fair."
(the Australia's National Anthem)
I believe it's a pity Australians sing about this principle daily, yet they are unwilling to stand by it.
~Brent
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Grant Price
Joined: Jul 3, 2001
Posts: 45 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 28
Country: Australia
Province/State: New South Wales
City: Sydney
|
Re: The Australian Assylum Seekers -the Facts and Issues
September 1, 2001 - 03:46 AM
|
|
Below is a systematic, complete and utter refutation of Predattack's Do-Gooder Commentary
<hr>"Australia...Who do not respect international laws"
Please undestand that these are not refugees...They have abused the system, trying to enter the country without consent.
Australia is compliant with Domestic and International Law.
<hr>"Most of the arguments for the side opposing the refugees entry to Australia are flawed, and prejudiced"
Care to provide an example...It's so easy to cry flaw, simply because you hold a different opinion, without actually considering the opposing view...Please check my viewpoint on Brent's update page and highlight a flaw...
Yet is anyone to point out any valid flaws in my argument.
<hr>"I feel what most people in Australia are doing is simply taking a reason put forward to them by someone"
Well - Let's face it, both sides of the argument face this problem. Most of the Australian public sadly are sheep.
For any argument, people manage to pour out any number of cliche's and recycled views...The ones that actually know what they are talking about generally don't use such cliche's and recycled phrases...
Need I remind you the Stupidity of the Australian People with the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" saga (Please don't make judgement on this as my view point for the Republican Issue in Australia).
Even more easy is it to cry out "prejudice"...You make the incorrect assumption that People base their opposition on Race Alone...Even if there is/was racial motivation, It may be for logical reasons (as to be discussed ahead), This does not constitute prejudice or racism. Such Ignorance Frustrates me to no end...You can call someone your own colour an idiot, but as soon as it is said to someone of a different race, people that seem to be in your mindset jump to the racist conclusion...Mark my words, one day people will be so afraid to say anything for fear of such a loosly branded remark
<hr>"The people who come by the boats...To a better place."
I'll ignore this, it seems to be just a comment as opposed to part of your argument.
These people didnt make it to Australia by being lazy and not caring about their future. They made it to Australia through the blood sweat and tears they poured into the effort to get here.
I definitely feel that blood, sweat and tears is the wrong expression. May be slightly more appropriate had their exit been officialised...Incidently what work are you talking about? Not disputing there is a possibility you have a valid point, just very vague, needs more info.
Please also note that nobody is saying that they don't care about their future...Another misguided/misplaced remark.
<hr>It sad that someone like Pauline Hanson, and other members of the One Nation party are so vocal in their ideals, and that so many australians follow them.
If this issue was in any way able to be related to Pauline Hanson, Don't you think she would have had a more prominent profile in recent weeks.
I am opposed to the entry of the boat-people, But am a staunch anti-hanson liberal. She's a pawn, backed by loose ideals, manipulated by bigger powerbrokers.
I again gain nothing but frustration on your assumption that anything against a person/people of a different race is based on superficialities only.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Grant Price
Joined: Jul 3, 2001
Posts: 45 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 28
Country: Australia
Province/State: New South Wales
City: Sydney
|
hehehe
September 1, 2001 - 03:49 AM
|
|
[The following needs to be read with the voice of Butthead, with the image of He and His partner in crime Beavis]
hehe - look at the topic...ASSylum, hehehE
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Mike
Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 369 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 25
Country: Australia
Province/State: Western Australia
City: Perth
|
hmmm . . .you spent a lot of time condemning me, now its my turn...
September 1, 2001 - 04:34 AM
|
|
since when was an ethnic background a superficialty?
- - -
"Please understand that these are not refugees...They have abused the system, trying to enter the country without consent."
If they arent refugees i dont know what are, they're fleeing Afghanistan and Iraq, countries blackmarked by the Australian government - ie; no visas allowed . . .EVER
"Australia is compliant with Domestic and International Law. "
I dont understand how Domestic law can be relevant to this or any other case concerning REFUGEES. . . and have you ever considered that international law could be wrong! Ive never seen a perfect law/rule/creed yet, and if international law is always correct, please point me in the direction of its authors, i think we need them to fix the world for us.
- - -
Now for the 'flaw' and 'prejudiced' viewpoint. Ive mentioned how i understand international law to be 'flawed,' do i really need to say more?
I believe the argument that they are rorting the system, if its what youd like to call it, is flawed. A lot of the arguments are about how refugees would simply drain the system - i would be entitled to say that if you were to even out the number of people in australia, with the number of refugees who applied successfully, that there would be a hell of a lot of bludgers on the part of the Australians, and an extremely small portion of bludgers on the part of the refugees.
Its part of Australian culture to be lazy and act loutish. Not a middle eastern or asian culture, or the culture of anywhere else i can think of. I welcome these people into our country, if they take my job, then fine. I was too lazy to try and obtain the qualifications for it in the first place. They would be more productive doing their job than i could ever be.
- - -
For starters, i should have outlined that pauline hanson has been making a lot of noise in international circles. The international media has failed to outline just how few seats are held by One Nation, and that is the fault of the media. Nevertheless, a very scary factor is not that people listen to her, its that people side with her, with little to no compromise on their beliefs and ideals.
- - -
"Please also note that nobody is saying that they don't care about their future...Another misguided/misplaced remark."
well well well. What would stop me saying your liberal beliefs are not misguided, this is simply a conflict of views and opinion, one can never have a misguided belief . . ever.
As to it being a remark, it was not a remark at all, it was a statement. Do not confuse them. I stand by what i said, anyone who holds a different view is welcome to it, you included.
- - -
"I again gain nothing but frustration on your assumption that anything against a person/people of a different race is based on superficialities only."
See top comment, this is the point where i became most frustrated with you! This is because you are not alone in your beliefs. I can offer nothing but sorrow for the people you consider to have superficial features that define them from people like us.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Grant Price
Joined: Jul 3, 2001
Posts: 45 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 28
Country: Australia
Province/State: New South Wales
City: Sydney
|
Re: The Australian Assylum Seekers -the Facts and Issues
September 1, 2001 - 05:32 AM
|
|
OH NO! I JUST WROTE A REALLY LONG REPLY TO YOUR ILLEGITIMATE ARGUMENTS, AND HIT BACKSPACE, AND THE PAGE WENT BACK, AND NOW I HAVE NOTHING! NOTHING! NOTHING!
If i can bother, i will re-construct it later - just know in the meantime, most of your comments are irrelevant
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Nick Moraitis
Joined: Nov 18, 2000
Posts: 34 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 29
Country: Australia
Province/State: New South Wales
City: Sydney
|
refugees
September 1, 2001 - 05:43 AM
|
|
"Please undestand that these are not refugees...They have abused the system, trying to enter the country without consent. "
What system?
Over the last few hundred years, and especially since World War 2 there has been a growth in the concept of an international system of rules. Refugees are a significantly humanitarian issue and managing people between States, who are fleeing states, disaster, etc is a major goal of the fledgling international system. Australia is a signatory to the Refugee Convention, the Law of the Sea etc and the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Above all, the fundemental principal of the International system is that people should have the right to have any claim they have for Refugee status examined. Why is Australia not following the system and giving them EVERY OPPORTUNITY to present their situation?
I also seriously doubt this lives up to Australian law. These people are in Australian territory, and they are basically being illegally imprisoned on a boat, being assumed guilty of a crime which they have not been charged with!!! Surely, the only PROPER way to follow the system would be to actually charge these people with something, even if that is illegally following orders, causing public nusiance? Then, they must all be arrested, including the captain of the boat, and put through some proper legal process, ie. a court. Obviously the reason this is not happening, is because the government realizes that bringing them before an Australian court would also give then an opportunity to exercise their right to properly claiming refugee status. This just demonstrates the perverse injustice being carried out.
What ever happened to the underlining system at work -- the system of our humanity, of compassion, of understanding, of trust and belief in our fellow human beings?
The reality is that the poor people on the MV Tampa (which is no place to keep people!! Can you imagine being stuck on a boat with no bed, proper food in the middle of the ocean for 10 days!! It would be my worst nightmare) are fleeing a regime that *systematically* abuses human rights, including the rights of women and girls, and of people who do not believe in their religion. The ironic thing is that while everyone says "They are just system abusers, ship them back to where they came from", the Australian government and people are failing to secure some kind of protection or clemancy for two Australian foreign aid works imprisoned in Afgahnistan who potentially face the death penalty after being accused of promoting Christianity. This is the place where these people are fleeing!!
No system of International tradition or law requires refugees to enter a country in one particular way or another. Refugees are refugees! They need help! They can enter by land, air, sea, whatever. And they have every right to go somewhere where they feel safe. Many people have said they could have stayed in Malaysia if they wanted? Yeah, that's a really good idea. Let them flee one country which persecutes people unjustly, especially by religion, and force them to stay in another one. Afghanistan is a country beset by civil war -there is NO refugee processing infrastructure in the country and thus NO WAY they can get on those "queues" which John Howard refers to so often.
Okay, so there is much to dispute about whether Australia is following the so called Systems.
But, more importantly, human suffering and abuse in essence contradicts the whole concept of a system. It is unsystematic. It is horrible, random and deadly and requires an understanding, compassionate response.
This is what the Australian government should do.
This is what we as a world must do.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Eliza
Joined: Jul 29, 2001
Posts: 6 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Soft-spoken
User is
Offline
Country: Australia
Province/State: Victoria
City: Melbourne
|
So this is what happens when I don't log on for a day!
September 1, 2001 - 06:39 AM
|
|
Wow...you guys are going great guns. It's fantastic to see all the shades of grey coming out in this argument (as opposed to the black and white views we find all the time...).
I've only just woken up, so I'm not going to say much now for fear it'll be brain-dead ;P - but I wholly agree with Nick. If we blindly stick by whatever laws are in place, without assessing their validity and worth, and effect on our society, then we are not only doing a disservice to the world, we're also not doing our job properly.
As people who live in a country where we HAVE freedom of speech (!) ~ we should USE IT. Examine everything about our political system (heck, about all the systems! about everything!) because we can, and we owe it to the world to do so. There are so many other people who do not have the opportunities that we have to speak out - the political system that they live within constricts them to the degree that they have to flee to another country, risking pretty much you name it - death, illness, execution, ending up somewhere generally awful, getting told to turn around and go back home - just for the slim chance of gaining a better life.
How selfish are we to not want to share what we have - not only in terms of our country (that, as Brent mentioned, has *so* much room left in it!) itself, physically, but in terms of how much we can give an example? Who was it that said "Democracy is the worst form of government...except for every other kind of government that's ever been tried!" Somebody has to start giving people a chance, sharing what they have, because (to use a funny analogy) otherwise the world will end up looking like a bunch of two-year-olds on Christmas day "I want it!" "No, it's mine!" "Give me the rest of the jellybabies!!" "I want them all - you can't have any!!"
Get the picture? I would like to believe that Australia - and Australians, as this is a democracy - could be a little more grown up than that and *share*.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
j
Joined: Jul 24, 2001
Posts: 26 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Female, 48
Country: Australia
|
what if.....
September 1, 2001 - 07:11 AM
|
|
As it seems a couple of the comments are from folks who don't come from Australian shores may I extend the discussion a little to one of global directions for displaced peoples (be that voluntary or no) and I ask the following.......
What would your solution be to the Tampa 'situation' were it your country, given that no other country in the region will take them?
Indeed, let's move the argument on...... if you headed up the UN - with the movement of peoples around the world and most across the borders of 3rd world countries, how would you decide which countries had to take displaced peoples and which ones did not?
In this 'brave new world', do internal laws of a country override its global responsibility if it *does* sign a humanitarian charter?
What are your rules and parameters, i.e. is there such a thing as a refugee - what defines that and how do you judge?
Is one permitted to exclude people on the grounds of their colour, their religion, or their lack of schooling (ie possibility they are only going to be 'manual labour' ergo may be burdensome to society)?
Who do you shoot/leave to die and whom do you feed if they are in your territory?
If refugees are accepted for 'processing', is it legal to imprison children as their fate is decided - even if this take years?
If a country refuses to comply what can the UN do about such a situation?
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Mike
Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 369 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 25
Country: Australia
Province/State: Western Australia
City: Perth
|
LMAO!!!
September 1, 2001 - 08:03 AM
|
|
well, what can i say . . .
. ..seems theres a higher power at work. 
Shouldnt you have hit forward, and the would still be there? I tried it on this message, and it worked for me.
Hint: Type out long replies in wordpad or something, then if something goes wrong, you can just copy and paste.
and im waiting to see what opinions and facts of mine are irrelevant. Should be fun 
btw - try and keep your views as exactly that, views.
Dont try and enforce them upon people, this site is aimed at discussion of issues and the like, not scare mongering or political exclusion.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Mike
Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 369 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 25
Country: Australia
Province/State: Western Australia
City: Perth
|
overnight developments
September 1, 2001 - 10:41 AM
|
|
A little country with no substantial income other than aid that Australia hands out to it called Nauru is taking the majority of the refugees.
I dont understand it, but a lot of Australians (the majority) are quite happy about this. As these people wont have to become part of their communities.
The outcome of the negotiations, that is - how these refugees will now be sent to a small, island nation that has little to no social infrastructure and very basic education shows just how compassion the Minister for Immigration 'Phillip Ruderick' and Prime Minister John Howard actually have.
These people came for a better life, in Australia. I thought this would mean people would respond with pride about their country, and share what they have worked so hard for with the rest of the world.
Oh well, seems like Australia has let us all down . . .again
These genuine refugees ( i have no reservations about letting them in if they arent genuine refugees either - i can explain this later if need be) should be settling down to a new life after already going through a quick immigration process - alas, that was not to be.
- - -
Pred.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Brent
Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 17 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 28
Country: Australia
Province/State: Victoria
City: Melbourne
|
The (final?) solution is.........?
September 1, 2001 - 10:57 AM
|
|
Hi Guys,
All of us disagree on so many aspects of the "assylum seekers" issue (doh, forgot to spellcheck before I posted the first message :P ), but what do we think should happen to the refugees?
Should Australia take them all in? Should they be subject to the same processes all other illegal immigrants go under? (processes which often lead to the execution of refugees who are sent home)
An interesting point I'd like is about New Zealand's offer to accept quite a few of the asylum seekers. If they did do so, because of Australia's CER agreement with them, the refugees would be able to move very easily from New Zealand to Australia if they so desired.
So, back on track; what should happen to the refugees?
Cheers
~Brent
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Grant Price
Joined: Jul 3, 2001
Posts: 45 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 28
Country: Australia
Province/State: New South Wales
City: Sydney
|
Re: The Australian Assylum Seekers -the Facts and Issues
September 1, 2001 - 11:01 AM
|
|
i tried the forward...didn't work - all the text disappeared 
Yeah - I've started to type in notepad now
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Brent
Joined: Jul 10, 2001
Posts: 17 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 28
Country: Australia
Province/State: Victoria
City: Melbourne
|
Forget it!! Refugees are ruining our economy!
September 1, 2001 - 11:13 AM
|
|
I know, I know..
I don't mean it.
But I thought it would get some attention.
I heard from a reliable source that there are plenty more people out there who hold similar views as Grant Price, but aren't willing to come out with them.
Get out of your shells!
You make us (the minority) sound much bigger than we are! Disagree with us - nobody here is going to hold your political views against you. (Although some will hold it against you if you make personal attacks, right Grant?)
Infact, I really don't mind that you disagree with me. As long as you can justify the reason for you having the beliefs you do have, I don't mind that you're totally wrong :-P , and I won't try to force my opinions on you.
It takes a strong person to stand up for what he believes in.
It takes a stronger person to stand up when he believes different.
(Grant, I really admire you for doing this in a setting with so many almost "left-wing" people)
Anyway, I really look forward to hearing from you all :-)
Cheers
~Brent
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Mike
Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 369 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 25
Country: Australia
Province/State: Western Australia
City: Perth
|
most of the arguments . . .
September 1, 2001 - 12:38 PM
|
|
I dont want to debate the international law of the sea, its too lengty and complicated to worry about, esepcially when the violations in this situation are coming from counties like Australia and Indonesia. Who do not respect international laws and international responses to crisis.
Most of the arguments for the side opposing the refugees entry to Australia are flawed, and prejudiced.
I feel what most people in Australia are doing is simply taking a reason put forward to them by someone with their facts not entirely straight. (such as how the refugees would simply be lazy and live off the welfare system)
The people who come by the boats across the rough seas and survive the terrible conditions of the ferries leaving indonesia as well as other places are the lucky ones, the ones who sold nearly everything they had and made a make or break dash to Australia. To a better place.
These people didnt make it to Australia by being lazy and not caring about their future. They made it to Australia through the blood sweat and tears they poured into the effort to get here.
It sad that someone like Pauline Hanson, and other members of the One Nation party are so vocal in their ideals, and that so many australians follow them.
**arent we off to a brilliant start to the day**
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Mike
Joined: Aug 31, 2001
Posts: 369 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 25
Country: Australia
Province/State: Western Australia
City: Perth
|
Thanks Jarra
September 2, 2001 - 01:09 AM
|
|
You gotta love the nice people on message boards around the world
Thanks a lot.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
|
Display posts from:
|
|
