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calyx
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Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 12, 2005 - 03:00 AM
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Hi everyone!
It is a matter of great displeasure to hear that Muslims detainees are tortured by their religious doctorines and beliefs.
I would like to ask all of u,the members of TIG,is this humane to torture someone by their religious beliefs.
No matter what religion one have,not for being Muslim I mention this,but it is totally inhumane.
According a report from BBC by Mr. Folkoff,
Mr Falkoff, a New-York based attorney representing 13 Yemeni prisoners at Guantanamo, told the BBC News website: "The government is trying to use religion to humiliate them."
He said his clients had been forced to wear shorts - meaning they were not properly attired for prayer - and that they reported confiscation of religious items.
Sex taunts
One method of humiliation reportedly includes non-Muslim interrogators throwing the Koran on the ground and stepping on it.
The US naval base at Guantanamo Bay holds about 540 inmates
Sexually suggestive techniques violating Muslim taboos about sex and contact with women have also been used, Mr Falkoff said.
I am very frustrated that there being a lot of Muslims members of TIG havent disclosed this topic yet.
It is a matter of deep concern.
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Yong Kyeong Roo
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 12, 2005 - 03:51 AM
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So this is how the military and officers of a so-called democratic and civilized society behave! Shame on America!!
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Ashraf
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 16, 2005 - 08:06 AM
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I believe what we hear from the camp is a very small portion of the truth. The actual abuses are much more.
The true face of the so-called 'liberators' is becoming uglier day after day!.
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Sunil Swaminathan Iyer
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 16, 2005 - 12:54 PM
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All the protests and deaths were for a lie.
Newsweek apologised for "misreporting" the story.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050516/ap_on_re_us/newsweek_quran
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 18, 2005 - 05:41 AM
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Newsweek is looking very foolish at the moment -
but I don't doubt there was some kind of religious exploitation used on detainees to get them to talk.
As for the liberators and ugly faces - Palestinian - I would say the face is still a whole lot cleaner then the methods used by the Taliban, Saddam, Hamas, the isurgency - or any of these other groups you openly support.
At least they are not sawing their heads off with a machette.
Regardless I think Congress needs to step into the Gitmo situation and take control of it - the Senators are not asking enough questions.
But really - if you are talking to someone who knows about a plot to blow up the White House - you are going to use any technique you can think of to get the info out.
It is really that simple. I think EVERY government - French, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani - you name it - would use any and all means necissary to extract the info.
Personally my question and concern is over culpability - if we are talking about a detainee that actually is involved in major terrorist plots, then while I may not approve I do understand extreme measures to extractt the info.
if we are talking about some guy who they picked up in Afghanistan who was just a footsoldier - then it is certainly very wrong.
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Cicero
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 18, 2005 - 12:18 PM
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We have two systems that fight off against eachother. Both of them want to control living of an human being. So let them bleed i say. Injustice always leads to resistance - sooner or later.
Ave Futuria
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Desert ROSE
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 19, 2005 - 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by luke
Newsweek is looking very foolish at the moment -
but I don't doubt there was some kind of religious exploitation used on detainees to get them to talk.
As for the liberators and ugly faces - Palestinian - I would say the face is still a whole lot cleaner then the methods used by the Taliban, Saddam, Hamas, the isurgency - or any of these other groups you openly support.
At least they are not sawing their heads off with a machette.
Regardless I think Congress needs to step into the Gitmo situation and take control of it - the Senators are not asking enough questions.
But really - if you are talking to someone who knows about a plot to blow up the White House - you are going to use any technique you can think of to get the info out.
It is really that simple. I think EVERY government - French, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani - you name it - would use any and all means necissary to extract the info.
Personally my question and concern is over culpability - if we are talking about a detainee that actually is involved in major terrorist plots, then while I may not approve I do understand extreme measures to extractt the info.
if we are talking about some guy who they picked up in Afghanistan who was just a footsoldier - then it is certainly very wrong.
Luke you always turn these topics to talk badly about those you hate .I don't think that anyone have the right to treat people according to their religion or thoughts. No matter what the person's religion was we are humans and i think we should act like ones.I know you are going to try to make this post for ur own good by descriping the actions of Hamas , Sadam......etc .Maybe u can fool others but u can't fool me.
anyway i didn't mean any harm in my post so i hope no harm is taken
peace
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Lucia
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 19, 2005 - 04:28 AM
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Originally posted by AryaBrahmin
All the protests and deaths were for a lie.
Newsweek apologised for "misreporting" the story.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050516/ap_on_re_us/newsweek_quran
Calyx did not specifically mention anything about the incident for which Newsweek apologized, thus, those things Calyx listed are not necessarily lies according to the reporting authorities. Newsweek specifically and only apologized for reporting that a copy of the Qura'an was flushed down the toilet.
Luke:
"As for the liberators and ugly faces - Palestinian - I would say the face is still a whole lot cleaner then the methods used by the Taliban, Saddam, Hamas, the isurgency - or any of these other groups you openly support."
First of all, I don't understand how who or what Palestinian does or does not support has anything to do with the topic at hand. Secondly, I often wonder if you are capable of sticking to a topic and making your own points (topic-related or not) without tainting your words with hostility and making slanderous statements about the person you are responding to. It is just not productive in this sort of discussion forum and it is not fair. Above all, however, you would gain more respect for yourself among others if you could extract your personal emotions from the discussions, as the way that you write to others tells others more about you than it does about the people you make statements about - and I mean this sincerely.
 Batoola: "Luke...I know you are going to try to make this post for ur own good by descriping the actions of Hamas , Sadam......etc. Maybe u can fool others but u can't fool me."
He can only fool others until they begin to see his pattern. Eventually everyone who reads his posts will come to see his pattern, that is why I said he would benefit most of all if he could stop writing like that.
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Rana Lotfy
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 19, 2005 - 05:51 AM
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Stick to the topic!
Religion has been a tool to torture the ppl esp in Guantanamo. A friend of mine has seen an American program called "60 minutes" the horrifying ways to torture Muslims in Guantanamo,i believe ,as Palestinian said, this is but a small truth of what really happens there.
Let me ask you Luke a Question When Abu Ghereb pictures where broadcasted to the whole world, there was an Iraqi prisoner wearing a black cloth to cover his head isnt this identical to Klu Klux Clan? (ppl who used to dispise,discriminate, humiliate &kill African Americans).
What kind of action does that show? Why does USA send sick pyshcopaths who still can't accept that ALL Americans are equal? So u can imagine what they'd do to their enemies.
The so called democracy & liberation is just an echo of the old call of colonization to "civilize & christianize the barbarians" but u cant use this term anymore so they twist it.
Why dont u read "heart of darkness" by Joesph Conrad?
may God help those ppl in Guantanamo
Romaica
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Lucia
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 19, 2005 - 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by Romaica
Stick to the topic!
Let me ask you Luke a Question When Abu Ghereb pictures where broadcasted to the whole world, there was an Iraqi prisoner wearing a black cloth to cover his head isnt this identical to Klu Klux Clan? (ppl who used to dispise,discriminate, humiliate &kill African Americans).
What kind of action does that show? Why does USA send sick pyshcopaths who still can't accept that ALL Americans are equal? So u can imagine what they'd do to their enemies.
The so called democracy & liberation is just an echo of the old call of colonization to "civilize & christianize the barbarians" but u cant use this term anymore so they twist it.
Hi Romaica,
Actually, the KKK wore white hoods and long robes, by their own will, and they were the ones committing atrocities. It is not really possible to draw an analogy between the KKK and the Iraqi with the black hood over his head. You could draw an analogy between the KKK and the Americans who put the black hood over the Iraqi and who carried out the atrocities that were done at the prison, and again, between the Iraqi prisoners and the African American victims of the KKK. Essentially, I believe that is what you meant. Hopefully Luke will take that into consideration before responding.
I don't know much about the KKK, but I don't think it was their goal to Christianize the Africans, but rather to simply kill them and wipe them out as a race.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 19, 2005 - 11:27 AM
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Really the goal of the KKK wasn't really to wipe out the African Americans because the KKK never had the membership or numbers to even attempt something like this, even though some, I am sure, wanted to.
Really their goal was to terrorize and intimidate the African American community and to keep them from seeking their rights - and really more often then not it was drunken red neck farmers without much to do just looking to bully someone.
Bitsy is right - the comparison you draw is nonsensical - the KKK terrorists were the ones who wore the hoods - not the Africans - they wore the noose.
Also the KKK was deemed by the American government an illegal terrorist organization a long time ago - before Africans had any kind of equal status really.
So I don't think the problems at Abu Garev stemmed from people not seeing all Americans as equal -
I think it had more to do with a basic disregard for human rights.
I am certainly not going to defend or excuse the actions that took place in the Garev prison - But as I said before I think prison abuse is a much bigger issue then just Abu Garev - my Uncle almost died in prison because of an abusive guard - and this was in Florida.
You are telling me that the prisons in Egypt never have this problem?
I think prisons EVERYWHERE have this problem - it is epidemic. Basically the kind of person who signs up to be a prison guard is usually a bit of a bastard to begin with - that is why they want to be Guards in a Prison. Then these people of generally below average intelligence are put in positions of absolute power where their prisoners are concerned - I think it is just matter of time before there is a problem.
Haseeb I agree that it would have been better if the protesters could have delivered their messege with a bit more control so that people did not die as a result - and you are right - nothing will scare investors like the prospect of instability.
In fact had the protests been a bit more orderly Karzi could have said "look at how rationally our people are protesting, even when they are upset they are civil - give me money."
Romanica - Yes of course I have read Conrad's book - it was adapted into one of my favorite films called "Apacolipse Now" directed by Coppola who also directed the "Godfather". You should see it.
As far as Christanizing - I don't think that is the goal - I don't see any major efforts being made to convert Iraqis to Christainity - or those prisoners for that matter.
I think there is an obvious effort being made to change the political system over there.
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Haseeb
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 19, 2005 - 12:24 PM
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Calyx - thanks for posting the topic. It is one of the hot topics of the day and I admit that we have ignored it on TIG discussions.
I have been following Quantanamo (in general) and the recent devolopments connected to it from close.When I first read the news week report , I did not have any major reaction to it. The news of abuses in camp Qitmo were not any surprising to me. They have kept happening there for a while now. Thus , I didn't expect all that followed.
I wonder if you know this or not : The first person to pick the report and rally public outrage through it was Imran Khan of Pakistan. Ironicly , he himself is not someone with any hardline religious background , but only .I would say, oppurtunist politician. He calls Mushraf's seemingly doing away with the Taliban as "losing Afghanistan". As if Afghanistan was his dad's property. He forgot what their his history is .
I still can not come to terms with the news of the loss of more than 15 Afghan lives and 2 elsewhere around the world apparently because of the Newsweek story. Not to mention the destruction of much of the government and UN buildings in Jalalabad -logar and few other provinces. Even though I undrestand that the people protesting had a reason to do so and I support their protests. I can not undrestand why would they burn cars , offices and NGOS. This is way we can live.
Hamid Karzai was on a trip to attract European aid for Afghanistan - he says the Europeans told him "how can we help when you Afghans are destroying your own infrustructure". I can see how ashamed he might have been -I couldn't hide the shame either.
BUT, all through out the incidents I had a feeling that there is an external hand involved in all the violence. I felt someone must be fueling it. I had to wait till the interior and defence ministery announced they have arrested "foreign citizens" at the violence sites. And you can guess where they might have come from.
Also - there were several reasons for why the riots broke out and the timing of it , which I don't want to get in to now.
On Gitmo:
It is really a black stain on US face. "nothing substantial" has yet come out of the investigation in that camp. Yet , it is one of the main recruiting slogans for anti-american elements around the world.People have been tortured , lives destroyed and families made to suffer - it is not a help from the US nor for the US.
The prisoners inside the camp vary - they have held Taxi drivers ,the personal enemies of local warlords , Taliban soldiers , Al-qaeda operatives ,and blah blah blah. Several have been released as innocent , but after spending years under those tough conditions. They won't talk of anything but the harsh things they faced while in detention - and it won't do any good to the US image - and thus, would result in more anti-US sentiments and trouble for our government too.
Just as luke said , the US senators need to have a thorough look at this facility and try and clean this stain from their face.
On Newsweek: Journalists have a tendancy to be "Sensationalist" and their sensation has good and bad effects. The news week story was sensational , with the BAd effects and the good that will come out of it.
The bad effect was that it resulted in death of 17 people around the world (15 In the poor Afghanistan) , and all that destruction in Afghanistan. Not to mention the damage to US image and growing anti-Americanism.
The good side was : It showed US how crucial it's actions are and that it has to keep checking its syestems. Afghanistan for three days was looking like it will blow from inside - that was the last thing we needed . The last the US could afford after what it is facing in Iraq. The US now knows that there are no FREE PASSES available for those who torture , and a single- no matter how isolated - incident can turn the whole show around. Thus ,it will make the US government act sensitively in dealing with religious material. It will make the US authorities look back at some of their policies and change it -to make it good.
It also reminded the world that Afghanistan is nothing but a fragile-stability. Though that stability has also blurred the past few days. If the world is really serious about not returning to the days when Afghanistan was used as a training facility of militants from around the world -then it needs to do more. The US needs to focus a lot on Afghanistan -in aiding Afghanistan as well as getting rid of the negative impact it's involevement has had in Afghanistan. Check this out http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,1439904,00.html
The retaction of the story by Newsweek seems something blurry to me. Newsweek might be intimidated to apologise. Newsweek might have got the story wrong. Newsweek might have made up the story . The source Newsweek had for the story might have been a "planted" source by the government to discredite the media and (maybe..less posibility ) see what public reaction is to something of that category (the abuse).So many possibilities to look at - it is to earlly to draw a conclussion.
All in all - I am sad about the loss of the lives and the destruction. But , I am hopeful that it will cause some good. I think , if things go right , the Newsweek story can have a dramaticly good impact. It has outlined to the US where the weakness lies. What it needs to do and what it should avoid- and what it has to pay for if those allegations are really true.
I was in a hurry - pardon me for some mistakes in language and probably meaning. I will check back tommorow.
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Yong Kyeong Roo
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This is what America is about!
May 21, 2005 - 04:05 AM
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HRW Press <hrwpress> wrote:
For Immediate Release:
U.S.: Religious Humiliation of Muslim Detainees
Widespread
New York, May 19, 2005 - U.S. interrogators have repeatedly sought to offend the religious beliefs of Muslim detainees as part of their interrogation strategy, Human Rights Watch said today.
Human Rights Watch said that the dispute over the retracted allegations of Koran abuse in Newsweek magazine overshadowed the fact that religious humiliation of detainees at Guantánamo Bay and elsewhere has been widespread.
"Around the world, the United States has been humiliating Muslim detainees by offending their religious beliefs," said Reed Brody, special counsel for Human Rights Watch.
Human Rights Watch noted that on December 2, 2002, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld authorized a list of techniques for interrogation of prisoners at Guantánamo, which included "removal of all comfort items (including religious items)," "forced grooming (shaving of facial hair, etc.)," and "removal of clothing," each of which is considered offensive to many Muslims. These techniques were later applied in
Afghanistan and Iraq as well.
The purpose of these techniques, Human Rights Watch said, is to inflict humiliation on detainees, an aim that is prohibited by the Geneva Conventions. Several detainees have alleged, to Human Rights Watch and others, that U.S. interrogators disrespected the Koran. Three Britons released from Guantánamo have made such an allegation,
[http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/september_11th/docs/Guantanamo_composite_statement_FINAL.pdf]
as has a former Russian detainee. James Yee, a former chaplain at Guantánamo, has also asserted that the mistreatment of detainees' Korans led to a hunger strike.
Erik Saar, a former Army translator at Guantánamo, has said that guards routinely tossed the Koran on the ground. Saar also described a female interrogator wiping a detainee with what the prisoner was made to believe was menstrual blood.
Human Rights Watch also interviewed detainees who described a protest at a U.S. detention site at Kandahar airbase in Afghanistan in early 2002 that was set off by a guard's alleged mistreatment of the Koran.
U.S. personnel have also used dogs as part of the interrogation process, which many Muslims consider
unclean. In December 2002, Secretary Rumsfeld
approved "Using detainees' individual phobias (such
as fear of dogs) to induce stress" at Guantánamo.
Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, then the top U.S. commander in Iraq, authorized Abu Ghraib interrogators in September 2003 to "exploit Arab fear of dogs." The interrogators then used dogs on detainees in a manner that was captured in the Abu
Ghraib photographs.
On Tuesday, White House spokesman Scott McClellan, referring to the "serious consequences" and "lasting damage" to the U.S. image, called on Newsweek to "help repair some of the damage" that was done by its report. But Human Rights Watch said that it was U.S. policies that had inflicted the greatest amount of damage.
Human Rights Watch said that Newsweek was not to blame for the damage inflicted in the riots. "The damage in the riots was directly caused by violent protestors and poorly disciplined police and army troops, not by Newsweek's editors," said Brody.
Human Rights Watch noted that the Newsweek story that mentioned the Koran abuse would not have resonated had it not been for the United States' extensive abuse of Muslim detainees and the government's failure to fully investigate all of those implicated.
"If the United States is to repair the public relations damage caused by its mistreatment of detainees, it needs to investigate those who ordered or condoned this abuse, not attack those who have tried to report on it," said Brody.
Common article 3 to the Geneva Conventions, which sets out minimum requirements for the treatment of persons in armed conflicts, requires detainees to be treated humanely without adverse distinction based on religion or faith. Outrages upon personal dignity are prohibited, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment.
For more information, please contact:
In New York, Reed Brody (English, French, Spanish,
Portuguese): +1-212-216-1206 In Amman, Fadi Al-Qadi
(English, Arabic): +962-79-5582331
In London, Urmi Shah (English): +44-20-7713-2788
In Brussels, Vanessa Saenen (English, French, Dutch,
German): +322-732-2009
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 22, 2005 - 02:58 AM
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I agree, so far luke has not justified or said what happened in guantanamo bay is right, he is just trying to rationalize and understand why those things happened.
I know the Quran is a very holy book to muslims, but I was a little suprised by the massive protests that were held because of this one story. Why does the muslim community make such a loud noise over one thing, but keep silent over the suicide-bombings in Iraq that kill muslims by muslims every week? I just dont understand that. I would rationalize that that would produce a much louder outcry...i guess not.
I really dont know the answer to this...so dont mistake it for sarcasm...but i'd like to know if the honor of the Quran is more important than iraqi deaths (for muslims).
Thanks, this is a topic difficult for me to rationalize, so i'm hoping for good answers.
Salaam,
Stamford
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Ashraf
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Re: Religious Abuse at guantanamo
May 22, 2005 - 04:11 AM
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luke,
I need you to answer a very simple question
Did the detainees EVER have a fair trial so you could openly declare they are guilty as charged in Guantanamo Bay?
So much for democracy and human rights!
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