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Tareq
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Discussion
May 10, 2005 - 04:46 AM
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Amin, thank you for your e-mail and for the words you already described in it. It is really important to dicuss together in a good way such topics like this.
Regarding STAMFORD05, you answer really shows a very biased and unfair view of the situation in Palestine. Speaking about a garden fence or speaking even about a fense is lie descibing fire with water. It is totally not true, the apartheid wall in Palestine is making the life of Palestinian people difficult it is breaking the families life. Because half of the family inside and the other is outside ( I mean by this that they cant meet each others except by travling a very long way 10's ok KM to see each others.
I was hearing different stories from people who really the wall make heir life a hell, the area where the wall is build is an illegal area because it is inside the Palestinian land, and far a way from the 1967 borders. Something else, the wall was build over the best agricultural lands which preventinian farmers from cultivate their lands.
By the way , the wall did not give any benefit from security point of view because, a person who is going to sucide him self will never get worried from a wall. I invite you all to read the following statistics which done by an international statisticians about the wall
http://www.stopthewall.org/downloads/pdf/4PageFactSheetOctober9.pdf
Wall should fall, this is the base fo building a peace between two nations, you cant create peace while you divide the people to small cantons. Lets work all for apeavefull solution. I am sure that there are people from the two parts who believe in peace and can help in acheiving it.
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Amino
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Just a reminder..
May 10, 2005 - 04:50 AM
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Hi again!
thank you guys for enhancing this discusion.. but I do have some points to mention..
don you think that it would be better if we have an OPINION to OPINION discussion, rather than ONE to ONE, PERSON to PERSON discussion..
we are discussing peace.. we are the generation of peace, the generation of the new "milliniume" - I don know how to spell this : )
I think that our discussion should end up with friendship relationships, for exchanging our ideas..
do you think that it is possible for global peace to exist while we never talk with each other about our sensitive conflicing issues? how convergence will be acheived!?
if so, we have to discuss such things quietly,
harsh - less - ly
of courses, I remind myself first, as well as my friends over here..
thank you very much..
[i am so sorry for being away of this discussion, acutally I couldn't login to the wesite last week]
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Amino
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so let's continue..
May 10, 2005 - 05:16 AM
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the Fence..
I don know if you dear STAMFORD are serious talking about this .. simple garden fence..
another thing is .. you said that Tarreq's information (or mttimimia.. whatever) is biased.. however you've given the Israeli Ministry ones !! what do you think this would be, perfect ? these wont convince me ..
I beleive you'd better give a third party informations and statistics.. UN ..e.g or any other unbiased organisation... what do you think?
So what do you have today, MR.?
i have this interesting website..
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights
browse through the maps, stats, pics, testimonies..
it's wealth with so many informations..
http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp
http://www.btselem.org/
[i can't say enjoy.. coz it's horrible..and scary ]
thanks
-Amin
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: so let's continue..
May 10, 2005 - 05:18 AM
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The only way you will see this fence come down is if the security threat to the Israelis is no longer.
I think you need to try to see this from their point of view -
They have a problem - people who hate them and their country are coming into Israel and killing Israeli civilians through acts of terrorism.
so they erect a wall to keep these criminals out - and IT WORKS - attacks from Gaza are down %90
So you put a wall up on the West Bank - it makes terrorism much more difficult.
It will be very difficult to explain to Israelis that they should make themselves vulnerable again (tear down the wall) after they just spent billion$ sperating themselves from those that would do them harm.
The idea that "The Palestinians will hate you for this wall" - is very unconvincing - over the last 60 years Arabs have hated the Israelis anyway - no matter what they do.
Just a few years ago the Israelis went to camp David and offered the Palestinians 97% of what they wanted - instead of negotiating further Arafat started another Intefadda.
I agree that the wall must ultimately come down - but this will certainly NOT happen BEFORE peace - rather it will happen AFTER peace.
mttamimi - I spent months researching Jewish oppression in the middle-east in places like Iraq - it was my JOB - the numbers are COMPLETELY accurate -
if you would like some sources I can dig them up.
900,000 Jews once lived in Arabia - now the number is less then 50,000 -
The community in Baghdad was 2500 years old, they were not Zionists, they were not interested in moving anywhere - they were Iraqis as were all of their forefathers since the time of Nebbecanezzer.
Their expulsion was the result of simple racism.
It was a policy for a while for the Arab states to assume the wealth of their Jewish citizens, and when there was nothing left - they poured them into Israel as penniless refugees.
The thought was that the fledgling Israeli economy would collapse under the weight of all these poor - it was a historic miscalculation - because the cheap labor was successfully absorbed.
But lets be real for a moment - when Jews reached Palestine they were buying desert land - mostly uninhabited - and they made the desert bear fruit through hard work and intelligence.
These Jews were mostly refugees - either from Europe, Arab lands or Russia.
But the wealthy Jews were GENEROUS - which is more then can be said for wealthy Arabs.
And these refugee Jews worked anf fought hard for a small bit of land that they might make bear fruit and might call their own.
The Arabs have not been NEARLY so generous to the Palestinian refugees - and these refugees have not worked to make their land bear fruit - rather religious fundamentalism, and anger have consumed them so that now decades later they are scarcely better off then they were 50 years ago.
Jews came from the MOST difficult of circumstances and created a nation - the guns and tanks protect this nation - but they did not create it. It was created with sweat and dilligence.
If the Palestinians really want a nation of their own they will not waist their energy in conflict, on destroying Israeli society - but rather focus on improving their OWN society.
They will recognise - as indeed many I beleive already do - that PHD's are more valuable then 100 Suicide bombers.
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Dont ignore the facts that you dont like...
May 10, 2005 - 08:47 AM
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Again, you keep going back to the fence. Did you even read what I posted, or the video i linked? So you dont trust Israel's Ministry of Defense's information? Thats probably the most accurate source of info about the security fence, since they're the ones that planned and built it. Stop disregarding facts just based on a source you dont like. Its like saying that info provided by the American government's Ministry of Defense isnt accurate. The "stopthewall" website only quotes palestinians that claim to know anything about this wall. I'm sure they're very fair and balanced, and I'm also sure that they are fully educated in the architecture of the fence, its size/dynamics, and everything about it, since they're all experts ofcourse. How can you even compare the authenticity of a government-run, official ministry office to some website who's facts and sources are really their interviews with a couple of palest. who complain about the fence.
Mtamimi....the security fence doesnt provide any security benefits?! Stop arguing without knowing any facts. If you watched the video i linked, or knew anything about the security fence, you'd know of its huge successes. Most terrorist attacks have been thwarted (prevented) AFTER the building of the fence. And yes, I do think that a wall can stop a suicide bomber, since it is so technologically advanced that there are sensors that detect a terrorist trying to climb over, which sends an army patrol immediately to check things out. Most often a cat or something triggers it, but its worth it when the alarm is real.
You're fooling yourself to ignore the facts, giving some lame excuse that the source is biased (how can the source i give you be biased? Its simple statistics...there is no "spin on words" or any literary tricks being done.) If the Ministry of Defense says that less than 3.5% of the Security fence is made of concrete, its true, since they cant lie. See, in a democracy, people are free to check the statistics for themselves. There are enough Israelis that oppose the fence, and that would be happy to discredit the government if they found that they were lying. Its not like in Iran or something, when the government is free to hide things from the people. Israel is a democracy, dont forget. Also, the information in my linked video has been accepted by the U.N, and they accept any official information from Israel's Ministry of Defense. If its good enough for them, it should be good enough for you.
http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=54400
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: so let's continue..
May 10, 2005 - 08:56 AM
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Stamford bro you are getting a bit too fired up -
relax a bit -
the fence itself is only a single issue and the descussion should not devolve into a back and forth over the dimensions of the wall.
There are two sides to this conflict - I think we would all benefit from a deeper understanding.
As mttamimi is a Palestinian he is someone who we should both seek to understand and seek to have understand us.
I agree that the Israeli military would get creamed by both the local Israeli media - and the world media if they falsified this information.
But really the Fence is only a recent symptom of a deper root problem.
We are talking about the fence as though the fence was the issue - it is not - the reasons and circumstances that lead to the building of the fence are the real issue.
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Yom Haatzmaut Sameach!
May 11, 2005 - 05:03 AM
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Before I begin, I'd like to remind people that today is Israel's independence memorial day!! Happy Independnce day everyone! I dont know about you guys, i gotta go celebrate with everyone else.
On a quick darker note...
Buddy, When you say things like "only 1 or two bombings a year", it makes it overtly obvious that you disregard truth and will say anything to prove a point. My policy while discussing is to use real evidence and facts:
Suicide-bomb attacks in Israel:
2003 2004
Attacks 26 15
Victims 144 55
And by the way mttamimi, of those 20% that were under the age of 18 that you mentioned, could you please tell me what percentage of those died in a foiled terrorist attack or suicide bombing?
Also, how many of those were killed for cooperating with Israel, like that boy the other day on the news, who helped Israel capture some terrorists, and was killed by palestinians afterword.
Did you know that 67 Palestinians Suspected of Cooperating With Israel Have Been Murdered?
I know that might be a bit random, but i'd like to know your word on that specific issue. Do you approve of this?
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Re: so let's continue..
May 11, 2005 - 05:25 AM
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whoops...i didnt see aminhilal's post before [sorry!]
Well, regarding bias... Ofcourse there is always bias in every perspective, but the question is how much?
While touring the site palestinianmonitor (recommended to me by mtammimi), I came across an article about "Israeli soldiers shooting dead two boys." The article said that the two boys were innocently retrieving a ball, when Israeli soldiers randomly fired and killed them. This really bothered me, because I dont like to think of the Israeli soldiers as such immoral people. I decided to search further into the facts and truth. What I found was an account of what really happened.
These two "boys" were actually a few years older than what the article said, and they werent playing ball at all, they were actually smuggling weapons. They had approached an area that was militarized and was strictly off-limits to anyone. After 3 or 4 warning shots, and the 2 not responding, the Israeli soldiers thought an attack was about to ensue and opened fire.
I'll admit it was a tragic situation, and that Israeli soldiers are not perfect - maybe they made a mistake, but in critical times like these, when you're prone to be attacked in such a hostile area at any moment, chaos and unscertainty ensues, you could understand their concerns.
This was just one example of the huge gap between two media approaches to a story. I think the second account is a lot more accurate, and it also makes more sense. There are numerous videos showing young palestinians smuggling weapons, and then acting like civilians a minute later.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: so let's continue..
May 11, 2005 - 06:04 AM
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the attacks were not simply decreased because of the political agreement -
it started earlier when the fence was first built.
I agree that both sides need to stop the violence because simply put there is NO military solution.
It is true that more Palestinians have died since the Intefadda began - but you are exaggeratting the difference.
once or twice a year? Actually Stamford does the numbers a disservice as well - about 1200 Israelis have died since the Intefadda began.
My friend I think it is certainly time for the Palestinians to have their own country - but this is not such a simple matter as the Israelis up and leaving.
There must be law and order in your territories - the fact Hamas won 1/3 of the municipal elections is a serious problem.
Israel will NEVER leave an area to Hamas control - because Hamas will only use it to launch attacks at Israel.
Why do you think Yassin and Rantisi were assasinated right before the proposal of a Gaza pullout?
It is because the Israelis wanted to leave Gaza - but not in Hamas hands.
I beleive very strongly that Hamas must be disbanded in order for peace to prevail.
They CANNOT destroy Israel, but they are determined to try anyway - therefor they cannot broker peace with Israel.
So they can't destroy Israel and they cannot create peace with Israel WHAT GOOD ARE THEY TO YOU?????
You canot expect the Israelis to bargan peace with an organization whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel - that is irrational.
Therefor when you defend Hamas you are doing yourself a disservice - because this organization is precisely what makes peace so difficult.
Abbas is a practical man it seems to me - Follow him, strengthen him.
Hamas answers to no one -= they are a loose cannon.
The IDF answers to the Israeli government - and the Israeli government is a democracy - so it answers to the Israeli people.
I know a number of Israelis - they are as tired of the conflict with the Arabs as anyone. They really just want to be LEFT ALONE - they want the Arabs to STOP threatening them.
Do you reolize that Israel represents the first time in 1000 years that Jews have held weapons?
And yet even on this website - "Palestinian" who discusses on these boards openly promots violence against Israeli civilians - and has vowed to me any number of times that he will not cease in violence against Israel until Israel is destroyed.
Do you know how many times - and for how long Israel has heard these threats? That is why they build the wall. That is why they have tanks in your streets.
When a small nation is under constant threat they build an army. When that small nation represents the survival of the Jewish race - they protect themselves with zealous intensity.
I think the Palestinians have gotten a raw deal all around - from Israel a bit, and also from all those Arab brothers who profess to "help" you.
But if you want Palestine to be strong and free - then do not focus on destruction - focus on education and civil engineering.
Have you ever heard of Martin Luthar King? Have you ever heard of Ghandhi? These are the examples that the Palestinians should follow.
The Palestinians SHOULD NOT follow the example of Arafat, they should not use violence and terrorism.
to use violence against a more powerful foe is both futile and stupid.
They are de-occupying Gaza this summer -
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Re: so let's continue..
May 11, 2005 - 06:25 AM
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Good point luke, the fence really isnt the issue. But what bothered me is how it is spinned off into another israeli "atrocity" in the "occupation." If some people opened their eyes past the bias, they'd see that this fence is actually doing the palestinians alot of good as well. I think at this point in the game, we need some separation, and since its temporary, we could always take it down when matters improve.
I actually dont even see where we're going with these discussions. Neither side will concede to any information, or actually change their opinion based on the information exchanged, So whats the point? Is anyone else finding all this futile?
[Maybe if we had a formal debate, but so far its just a ping-pong game]
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Amino
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Biased or not?
May 11, 2005 - 10:55 AM
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hello Stamford, Luke and Mtamimi..
how are you all?
mm, regarding bias-ness.. well forget abt teh wall for now, how do you test smth for being biased or not?
if a news coming from Israeli channels is totally shown to be negative, while it's totally positive on the Palestinina ones, who is biased ?
of course the Israelis would think of the wall as the best choice and they would stand for their wall they've built.. while the palestinian are suffering .. and their life is getting like the hell [and no one cares] won't like it.
an educated smartie outside observer, won be attracted to any one of them directly, instead, he/she would look for one in between, which conciders the both sides views which is most probably would have the truth..
dear Stamford, and Luke.. I agree that many arabs do hate Jews.. this is right [as I see it] but those are taxi dirvers, and vegetables sellers.. and they don differentiate between those who are zionists and other Jews, which I beleive they are different [this is stated by Naturi Karta the American group e.g.]
also, don forget that, 60 years ago was the period were too many ad's were goining around about the Jews Home,
and it's not only Iraq, here in Saudia and Yemen, many jews did migrate to [Israel] I think once it was announced.. by approvals from the Arab governers..[some says]
last point, when you dear Stamform say OPEN your eyes, I don know why you don open them as well ?
I see Palestinian population is more or less the same as the Israelis one, however , there are HUGE differences between the two ! once simple fact is that all these pal's are confined to live in roughly QUARTER the Israelis land ?!
I can ask the same now, can't I ?
good luck
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Tareq
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security
May 11, 2005 - 12:54 PM
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Regarding security which you both mentioned in your writings, It is really an important issue as well for Palestinians who are suffering since 1948. Our life is really not secure because of the Israeli army who make our life unsecure. For an Israeli a sucide bumbing is an action that happened once or twice a year. but for me my life is indanger in a daily basics, because of the israeli army invasion to our Palestinian lnads. bumbing different kinds of bumbs from tear gas bumbs and sound bumbs at the latest. This make our life, all from all parts and areas like a hell. You dont know or hear about this, because the only thing you hear about is only a sucide bumbing. 8818 palestinians are still in the israeli prisons, More than 3000 Palestinian had been killed since the end of 2000, 20% of them were children under 18 years old.
I am not showing these statistics to build a hate but this is really the reality, the israeli government should stop killing Palestinian incents people, because you cant control a father whose 5 years old child hade been killed by an israeli tank. this and all other terrorist attacks from Israeli army should be stoped.
Regarding the fense, the 90% decrease of sucide bumbing which you speak about is not because of the wall, but it is because of an agreement between all the Palestinian political parties including Hamas and Juhad to stop it. It is a ceasefire agreement which was agreed between Palestinians and Israelies but unfortunitly the Israeli army are still killing incent peolple and still building more settlements over Palestinian land.
I invit you to read more about statistics regarding the Palestinian loss at the official website www.palestinemonitor.org
I say to you clearly, I dont trust any of the Israeli governmental websites, because sure they will not show you the crimes they are acting against Palestinian people of building the wall and killing incents. stopthewall is an international organization which is not biased but it is only showing the facts regarding the apartheid wall.
looking to hear from you more words that can build trust between two nations and that can support a peace process but while we are killed under the massive army attachs and you speak the contrary, i dont think we can find a solution. So please revise your information and lets build a trust relation built of witnessing what happened and trying to change it for the benefit of the two nations.
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Re: so let's continue..
May 12, 2005 - 05:14 AM
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"they are de-occupying gaza this summer"
Yeah, unless Hamas wins the elections...they might change their plans if that happens.
Another reason for why Palestinians should NOT support Hamas...its just creating more distrust from Israel's side. Israel is already so reluctant about this pullout, I think the palestinians are lucky for even getting it.
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Tareq
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de-occupying
May 21, 2005 - 06:58 AM
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Luke, I find in your words lots of things to speak about, but I tell you that I have the same wish that you have to live in peace and to stop bloodsheling from both sides. Speaking about numbers is not a solution what we should discuss about is as educated youth how can we stop this war, how can we stop this destruction wepons targeting children and women. How to stop the F-16 and buldozers running over incent Palestinian houses.
Stamford, withfrawing from Gaza is something should happen because it is occupation and we sould finish it. we are waiting for others from west bank and Jerusalem.
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Re: so let's continue..
May 22, 2005 - 02:11 AM
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you keep saying "innocent houses"...when will you achknowledge the fact that these houses have been destroyed because they are the homes of terrorists, and destroying them serves as a deterrant to further terror?
Btw, you form a contradiction by opposing both the security fence and the destruction of terrorists' homes. The separation or security fence will stop more suicide attacks, and therefore stop the destruction of terrorists' homes. So if you want the destrcution of palestinian houses to stop, oppose terror and support the security fence.
And lets get this straight once and for all...Israel does not "target" civlians...if some are killed, it is because they are hit in the crossfire, and more often then not, it is palestinian bullets that kill these "innocents", not Israeli. If you're gonna fight the "occupation" or w/e, leave your children and non-combatents at home. I know the appeal of having the media portray Israel killing a "civilian" is very tempting, but shouldnt you value human life over anything else?
[I put civilian in quotations, to point out the irony that when a terrorist is killed, he suddently transforms back into "civilian" status.]
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