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Amino
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so let's continue..
April 25, 2005 - 05:51 AM
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Hello every body..
during the last 50 years, we have seen a continuous conflict between Israel-Palestine nations, nothing excpet distruction, refugees, daily revanges, mutual hate.. and so on.
considering all the historical + religious + social + cultural heritage .. do you think [( "theoritically" )]- that Iraeli - Palestinian coexistence is possible ?
forget about who is responsible for what.. just assume the proposed solutions, either the two states solution, or the Lybian leader solution [Isra - tine ]..
do you think Israelis and Palestinians will be able to live with each other ??
note: I'd like this discussion to be abstract, it should respect the other's view.. and follows TIG discussion rules.
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S.M
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Re: so let's continue..
April 25, 2005 - 06:25 AM
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hello,
i guess that Palestinians can't live with Israelis ever, basicly both nations hate each other , how could they live togather??
beside , in my opinion they can live togather just in one case : in war , but no peace between Israelis and Palestinians or any other arabic muslim country forever
salma
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redmamba
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Peace is always a possibility!
April 25, 2005 - 08:15 AM
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History shows clearely that there have been other cases of tooth hatred. At one point, Muslims were involved in Jihad and Christians in crusades.
In all given wars, one in them would only see or envision a peaceful co-existence as a utopia that is not achieavable.
History has shown that with good intentions, lamb and cub can dine at the same table. the Lamb will eat grass and the cub....
Let us offer words of peace, prayers, appeals and cry with those who desire and hope for that day when it will be over.
Peace is always a possibility. it is a call that non can resist except that we want it to come the proper way.
let us hope the proper way to peace will be found soon. and violence can not quench violence. so we hope the seeds of peace that are evident will be nurtured, that they may blossom and grow to the wonderful harmony.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: so let's continue..
April 25, 2005 - 10:41 AM
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they have no other choice - sooner or later they will have to find peace.
But really there are other factors in the region which fuel the conflict so change on a broader scale must occur before they can find peace.
Right now Israel has become an easy Hate object for Autocracies in the region looking to distract their populations from domestic woes.
As for "Isra-stine" forget it. That would lead to a permanent power struggle and perpetual civil wars.
The Muslims will not accept Jewish rule and the Jews will not accept Muslim rule -
therefore they must both have their own nations and rule themselves.
Before peace can be had - and eventually it will have to be - a major internal conflict will have to be fought on both sides.
You are now seeing the beginnings of a Jewish internal conflict as the Hardliners attempt to thwart the Gaza withdrawl.
There also must be a similar conflict in the Muslim world where the Hardline fanatics are brought to heel and the moderates take full power.
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E
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Re: so let's continue..
May 1, 2005 - 07:16 AM
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Pessimistically, I'll agree that in the near future peace between the arabs and israelis looks very doubtful.
However, there have been many efforts for integration, promotion of peace, and positive education brought forth by Israel in an effort to counter the extensive amount of palestinian's brainwashing hatred into their youth...
There are summer programs that brings children from both sides together...joint soccer matches..etc.
The future lies in the hands of the next generation. If Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Hizbollah continue to fuel their children with hate..the conflict will go on. But If they begin to teach peace, then there is a possibility for peace, that even such a pessimist as I can recognize.
"Wounds need time to heal...so stop picking the scab"
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Udara
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Re: so let's continue..
May 4, 2005 - 01:36 AM
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>If Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Hizbollah continue to fuel >their children with hate..the conflict will go on. But If >they begin to teach peace, then there is a possibility for >peace, that even such a pessimist as I can recognize.
"Hamas" / "Islamic Jihad" / "Hizbollah"
What about the right wing extremists of Israel ?
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E
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Re: so let's continue..
May 4, 2005 - 04:39 AM
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Excellent question! ("Whatabout the right-wing extremists of Israel"
I'm Glad you brought that up...
See, while Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hizballah (Extreme, TERRORIST groups) have a popular standing amongst palestinians and neighboring arabs, and since they also represent a majority of the palestinians, they differ drastically from the extreme rightists of Israel (Not terrorists, and rarely violent). The extreme right of israel is a SMALL minority, which most Israelis criticize, shun, and are ashamed of. The extreme right in Israel is also highly insignificant, and they dont really affect the main israeli populace's thinking. Again in contrast, Hamas is so popular that it might be elected the winning party to represent the PLO next elections...
So...in answer to your questions: What about them? They dont matter, since they are so small and insignificant.
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Amino
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the ambiguous peace
May 4, 2005 - 07:35 AM
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Hi Guys!
we have seen alot of scenes where they deny all israelis initiatives for peace.. or progress for peace..
1. Refugees: there are millions of Palestinains scattered around the world, they are not allowed to returned
to their homes. (so Sharon is saying "dear palestinains forget abt your homes",
some reasons the Israeli side is giving like, there is no place .. we have a lot of traffic !
on the other hand, thousands of people, with different nationalisties are very very welcomed ! provided with new houses, jobs and facilities and so n
2. What ignites hate? or terrorism ?
Distructing houses ,"almost daily",with the right of "no ownership certificate"? what kind of action is this?
in all over the world, have any one seen any government distruct a citizen house for any reason ?
the max thing i think would be something like evacuating the house..
[so distructing some houses, while offering new ones for new commers]
3. THE GREAT EASTERN WALL. do you think that this historical wall, is a sign toward PEACE.
for whatever reason.. terrorism or whatever.. what everyone can see is that Israelis want to isolate themselves from the flood of these "bombers",
as well as explosive unmeployment within the Palestinian teritories. [WALL to avoid interaction].
by looking at the past ..and the present ..extending what actions the Israelis are doing , and projecting that on the future, personally, I don see any signs of peace at all.. but rather more compromises and more submissions from the Palestinian side..
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E
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Peace is not only a dream
May 5, 2005 - 08:56 AM
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Ok, just addressing a few things from the last poster. (I hope she doesnt mind.)
"What ignites hate? or terrorism ? Distructing houses ,'almost daily',with the right of 'no ownership certificate'? what kind of action is this? in all over the world, have any one seen any government distruct a citizen house for any reason ? the max thing i think would be something like evacuating the house.."
I find this statement very faulty. First of all, Israel never "randomly" destructs houses "everyday". The houses destructed are of SUICIDE BOMBERS. You may ask, "well, why should the family be punished." Although some families arent responsible for their children's "Shahida" or martyrdom, many are and even encourage their children. In an effort to discourage terrorism and suicide attacks, Israel carries out these procedures. Destruction of houses doesnt ignite terrorism, I belive you got that a bit backwards. This is a good scenario of what goes through the mind of a would-be-terrorist:
"Hmmm, those guys from hamas have a good point. I mean i'm not educated, my life isnt really going anywhere right now, and my family is poor. They could really use some of that money which syria, saudia arabia, iran, and other arab countries send to the families of suicide bombers. Those 72 virgins sound really tempting too, and knowing that i will be a hero and schools be named after me makes me smile. What have I got to lose? I've been told to hate those pesky jews all my life, and that they drink the blood of arab children? I thought they keep something called "Kosher", close to my "halal meat", but whatever-- If I hear it from those hamas buddies, it must be true! Also, I've been told that blowing one's self up is quite painless...the explosion instantly decapitates you, and you dont feel a thing! I cant wait to get my vest already! I'm thinking up bus routes and night-clubs to blow up, i'm so excited! The younger the civilians, the better! Mom always said "The more, the better", and when it comes to casualties, it sure does apply here! Itbach Al Yahoud! Allahu Akbhar"
Putting all the sarcasm aside, destruction of houses will make a would-be-suicide-bomber think twice. Say to himself: "Will I actually make the situation of my family worse? Will they become homeless? Maybe it isnt worth it...I heard the money from the Saudis has been taken by the PA anyway...What if I get caught? Will i spend the rest of my life in Jail? Yeah, maybe it isnt worth it"
And thats the whole idea behind destructing the houses of suicide bombers and terrorists. You're mot destructing houses, you're destructing motives to kill. About these "other governments"...
If there was a suicide attack on a nightclub in New York, and the FBI or USArmy found the house of the terrorist, you can COUNT ON THE FACT, that in a short matter of time, the attacker's entire family would be in jail and under interrogation, their house be destroyed, and any fundamental radical-islamists in the area would be arrested too, no questions asked. I think Israel is being too nice. They're letting the family of a suicide bomber off the hook. And dont worry! They wont be living on the streets, the "FAMILY of the GREAT MARTYR" will be taken care of very well by the neighbors and such. Whats the point of just evacuating them? Its not the house that matters, its the signal it sends to all the would-be-terrorists, letting them know of the consequences. [Next time, spend your money on a new house, not on explosives]
Oh yeah, and the WALL? (Technically a fence, since only less than 5% of it is made of concrete...the rest is barbed wire fence) This Security Fence, (proper name) has deterred scores of attempted attacks. It is true that because of it, more palestinians are unemployed, and I feel sorry for the ones that really are innocent and good and want peace. But unfortunately, they are the minority and they have to deal with the consequences of the rest of their brothers. My suggestion to the palestinians who want relations with Israel, who want to work in Israel and make money, who want to live normally and in peace: Stop telling your children to hate, stop raising little ticking bombs, and stand up against the radicals that are ruling and representing you. If you really want peace, take it. Its up to you to make the first step, Israel is waiting for you. Israel has proved it wants peace. Israel doesnt want to have to drain its economy to feul its army, it would much rather be at peace and concentrate on the economy and life, and improving something like the water situation in the middle east. Give Israel some breathing room, and it can be a great friend.
Peace is possible, but give it a chance. I dont mean those silly "ceace-fires" which mean nothing, I want a change in the palestinian education, to change the description of jews from "enemies and infidels" to humanbeings, and friends. [And there has been progress!]It all begins with children.
Please>>> Give your child a taste of freedom; give them an olive branch, not a gun or explosives-belt.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: so let's continue..
May 6, 2005 - 08:16 AM
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aminhilal -
I would ask you a very simple question when you talk about Palestinain refugees -
are you aware of the 900,000 Jewish refugees which were either forcibly expelled, or desperately oppressed in Arab nations in the last 60 years?
When the Israelis say there is no room and then "welcome in people from all over the world" - this sounds like a good statement -
but the problem is that 250,000 Jews were forced out of Iraq, another 100,000 from Iran - thousands from Syria, Egypt - all over the middle-east - Lybia, Morrocco etc.
OF COURSE Israel welcomed them, where else did they have to go?
- Since the Arab nations pushed close to a Million Jews into Israel - perhaps they might help alleviate the Paletinian refugee problem - don't you think this might be appropriate?
- I see no Sign of the Iraqis or Iranians welcoming Jews back, so why sould Israel welcome back all the Palestinians when its boarders are already full?
The truth is that the Autocracies in the Arab world could have aleviated the strain of the Palestinian refugee problem a long time ago - but instead chose to let it fester - this is because by keeping a proxy war with Israel going they could rid themselves of dangerous, angst ridden young men - who would otherwise commit violence against their domestic governments - by instead promoting this grand oppotunity for these fanatics and violent individuals to go cause harm to the Israelis instead.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: so let's continue..
May 7, 2005 - 02:55 AM
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Bro - open your eyes -
Iraq kicked out 250,000 Jews in the 50's and early 60's - America and Israel were litterally running an air campeign into the Iraq desert at night to airlift out Jewish refugees.
They even contemplated a "Final Solution" - this is well documented.
So I am sorry but you are simply factually WRONG - the Jews who were expelled from Arab lands was not 70 years ago -
It really started when Israel was created because that was when hatred of the Jews really kicked into full force. In the 50's and 60's Jews could be hung for suspician of being "zionists" - in fact Zionism was a crime in most Arab countries -
In Iraq - as an example Jews were expelled from government work - the Dhimmi Tax was raised to a rediculous degree - the government started basically stealing community centers and homes.
They laid the entire cost for their war with Israel on the backs of its Jewish citizens -
After they had reduced the wealthiest and largest Jewish community in the Arab world to destitution they revocked their citizenship and forced them OUT.
This was all accomplished by 1969.
I can give you ample evidence if you require it.
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Tareq
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comments
May 7, 2005 - 03:40 AM
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Luke, regarding the subject even speaking about somthing happened in 60's or 70's which I am sure that the number is not correct but anyway, If this really happened why Palestinian should be tortured and their land get stolen and occupied. why should you solve a problem with creating problems for the others. It is really logic, what happened to jews is the same done by some of them now represented by the Israeli government in both 48 and 67 Palestinian were humilitated and the Israeli occupation killed women, children, elderly people and not only this even trees were confisicated and the country become a mess.
So occupation should stop and peace should be spread in the Holylands to allow to all religions to be practiced freely. But what I see is that the number of jews is increased 6 times because of the transfer strategy to bring people from anywhere in the world to settle in a Palestinian land to be called Israelies, I cinsider this crime more even dangerous than holicost. Because solving a problem with a problem is also a crime.
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Tareq
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Comments
May 7, 2005 - 04:16 AM
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Ley me start first from Luke comments, regarding the 900.000 jews you are speaking about, it is not the same peple that Aminhilal spoke about because most of those whom Israel welcome are people who comes from Russia, eastern Europe and the states. It is a kind of transfer bringing people to take the place of Palestinian refugees. Regarding Arabs expelling jews from Arab countries you speak about some thing happened before 7o years but not in the last 50 or 60 years. I was in some Arab countries were jews are really living in Arab countries the same as Arabs and you can see the example of Morocco, Tunisia, Yemen and other Arab countries. So what you speak about is totlay not true, and the Israeli aim is not to leave a place to the land owners who were kidded from their countries by occupation in 1948 nad 1967.
Those Palestinians you speak about the Rufugees they have the full right to come back to their houses and cities which was taken from them by force. I believe this will be a good step for Peace. There are more than 4.5 million Palestinian refugees who are still seaking a way to come back home. This will not only build hate on them to Israel but also will creat more hate within their relatives who live in Palestine and didnt see their relative since a long time.
Going to the subject of house distruction (demolition), it is not true that only the Hamas or others houses which are demolished. house demolition is a tool to humilitate Palestinians, which happened some times for a certificate reasons, Or the house is close to a settlemenet so for security reason or because the Israeli government wants to build a bypass road for few settlers to use it as sole use.
The Wall, what we can the new Berlin Wall, the memory of the apartheid Wall, which is even higher and bigger than berlin wall. Here are some information about it:
The length of the wall is 408 miles.
Concrete sections are 6-24 feet high
Other sections are a complex of trenches, barbed wire, electronic surveillance fences and patrol roads.
** while Berlin Wall was Length: 96 miles Height: 3.6 – 11.8 feet ------ Big Difference
Some Impacts of the apartheid wall
more than 100,000 ancient olive trees DESTROYED
11,400,000 Square M of agricultural land DESTROYED
for further information you can visit the offical statistics International website at www.stopthewall.org
by the way the International court of Justice in Hague.
speaking about Israeli terrorist groups they are really a lot and they are not minority as you mentioned. Hamas is a small minority in the Palestinians as well and this can be clear from the last local minicapilities ellection which shows Fateh high percentage in it. So peaking about terror groups in Israel from the right wing is really a long subject so dontmistake and say they are minority please.
At the End, we still put our hands for Peace, we accepted the cease-fire and we are still working withit even Hamas and Jihad are still respecting the cease fire but the Israeli government didnt repsect it and they are still building the wall demolishing houses and killing incent Palestinian children. So to acheive peace we still need the respectance from the Israeli government which can control as well the Israeli terrorists groups.
So Palestinians wants Peace and Looking to live as anyother nation in Peace, because Since 1948 we are living under humilitation, living under the Israeli fire, under curfews and bumbing. So lets work for Peace, give Palestinians a space to breath to put their hands for Peace.
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Injy
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Re: so let's continue..
May 7, 2005 - 05:16 AM
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Luke... Long Time No See
Why using lots of past tense verbs( were, kicked, ect.)?
The question is in present "do you think?" I am, by no means, of the non-believer of history as the reference tool.
Both had, have had, and are suffered/suffering.
There is no choice but sharing the land and living side by side, it is a mission impossible, but what could else happen, the Israelis to eradicate the palestinians or the palestinians to terminate the Israelis...Nonesense
Present tense is obviously needed
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E
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BAD NEIGHBORS REQUIRE GOOD FENCES
May 8, 2005 - 02:16 AM
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mttamimi, your numbers and figures are quite nice, except one thing: THEY ONLY PRETAIN TO approx. 3.8% of Israel's FENCE. I dont see "stopthewall" as such a good source for information....its very biased and incorrect. Please search "Israel's Security Fence" on Google, click on the first few links, and you'll have all the REAL FACTS. Anyway..back to what you said:
(1)Is the fence like the "Berlin Wall"?
No, it is not. The Berlin Wall, erected August 13, 1961 by the Communist East German government, had the purpose of keeping citizens of East Berlin from defecting to the West. They were eager to flee the harsh conditions of the Communist east for the prosperity and freedom of the West. The Berlin Wall was an act of desparation after the tide of defectors became a flood.
Israel's security fence is intended to keep dangerous terrorist infiltrators out of Israel, just the opposite of the Berlin situation. Furthermore, Israel welcomes peaceful Arabs -- about 20% of the Israeli population is Arab. At the same time, the Palestinian Arabs reject any Jewish presence and want no Jews living in any area they control, including areas of historic or religious significance to Jews.
(2)Is the fence an "apartheid" wall?
Like the phrase "Berlin Wall" this is another attempt to link Israel's security fence, a reaction to terrorist killers, to repugnant actions taken by other governments for sinister reasons. There is nothing apartheid about Israel or the security fence. The fence does not restrict Palestinian Arabs to certain quarters or separate them from other Arabs. It does prevent free access to Israeli population centers, channeling traffic through military control points. Why? Because all other methods have failed to stop terrorists from preying on Israeli civilians. If the fence succeeds in its purpose, Palestinian Arabs will benefit because it will reduce the need for Israeli military operations and the deployment of troops in Palestinian Arab towns. Other security measures, such as curfews and checkpoints, that Palestinian Arabs object to may become unnecessary or be dramatically scaled back.
(3)What did the International Court of Justice say about the fence?
Arab countries and others normally aligned with Palestinian Arab interests appeared before the ICJ to argue against the legality of the fence. Israel and some 49 countries presented written briefs on the fence to the ICJ. Over 20 of these countries wrote questioning the court's jurisdiction in a political dispute between Israel and Palestinian Arabs, both of whom have equal legal right to West Bank land. Among the objecting countries were the US, Russia, a number of European countries, Australia, Canada and smaller countries such as Cameroon. Others questioned the fact that India, Saudia Arabia, the United States and other countries have fences to control their borders, but only Israel has been subject to scrutiny by the United Nations and the ICJ.
I found a nice powerpoint presentation putting together all the real FACTS about Israel's security fence. This is coming from Israel's Ministry of Defense, so this is the most accurate statistics you can get.
http://securityfence.mfa.gov.il/mfm/Data/49058.pps
ENJOY!
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