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Udara
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Re: reply
April 4, 2005 - 02:23 AM
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Originally posted by Haseeb
Good morning pals,
Luke, you say “The US did empower radical Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 80's” - so who were the Taliban? Man, they were part of the “radical Islamic extremists” that the US empowered, feed and helped train through its Pakistani friends. Luke, actions have consequences and you are neglecting those consequences. The Hamid Karzai which today can be credited for much of the progress in my country is not a new man, he is a certainly NOT a US made man I can tell you that with solid prove. He is a true Afghan, because he is not extremist. He together with people like Abdul Haq, Masood and Dr.Najeeb- was alarming the US of the consequences of your actions (supporting the extremists) since the 80s. You know how the US policy makers (In the CIA not the State Department) were reacting to him and his friends– Milton Bearden the CIA Islamabad station chief used to call people like him “Liberal art jerk offs ) who can never run Afghanistan. Luke lets take responsibility (maybe partial) for your involvement in creation of a nightmare for my country (The 1992-96 civil war and the Taliban dilemma).
You really have to understand how big and bad consequences some of your actions can have – imagine if the US had accepted the solution Hamid Karzai and team were proposing in the late 80s and early 90s . They were calling for a Loya Jirga that would gather around the former king, and you can see what America did to the process by reading some chapters of Steve Coll’s Ghost Wars.
I am glade America has realized some of its mistakes , and it did the thing Afghans were proposing 10 years after it was first proposed. You know Luke, USA always (during the 1978-2001 periods) looked at us (Afghanistan) from the eye of Pakistani intelligence, and it paid the price- I think. 9/11‘s roots are no where but in what is called CIA supported Jihad against the Soviet Union (yes the CIA supported “Jihad” –a word that now scares the hell out of many). Luke, the one time Soviet installed President of Afghanistan- Dr.Najeeb Ullah in his last press conference warned “ Afghanistan will become a terrorist base if the US did not change its policy towards it ……” (Go to Ghost Wars) –now what he meant by policy in 1991-2 is hard to understand, but it is true to think that he knew something others came to know ten years later.
You did pour HARD cash in to those schools (the ones in Pakistan- read about where the CIA money used to go during the “Afghan Jihad”.); you did supply weapons to those who misused the JIHAD. And You really played a big role in bringing back in to surface the Violent form of Jihad – using it against your enemy the USSR. Luke, Jihad has a lot of other ways apart from fighting with guns, you can do Jihad with a pen and with your words. I know it is not THE MAINSTREAM jihad now, because the mainstream Jihad of today was shaped in a violent way. Now, sometimes I feel we should have done those forms of Jihad (the pen and words one). I cannot think of leaving my country under USSR invasion, but I can see where it all started. I can see how we were used, and how we let ourselves to be used
Haseeb, Thanks for sharing this, You being from afghanistan indeed can give more insight than any of us on this matter.
US involvements with extremists are CRYSTAL clear. They did not take that threat seriously, look what this guy is saying :
Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?**
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: reply
April 4, 2005 - 10:29 AM
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"Important not in the war and peace context but in the sense of economy and capitalism!"
AHAHAHAHAHA! man are you kidding - do you know anything about the Cuban Missle Crisis? They came a hair away from destroying the entire world - Russia secretly had moved over 100 Nuclear weapons into Cuba about 50 miles off the American coast, and in range of 200 million Americans.
When America found out they threatened to invade Cuba which would have motivated Russia to fire its missles.
Castro was telling Russia to fire - even though he knew it would mean then end of Cuba.
I think whenever you have Nuclear weapons all over the world ready to deploy at a moments notice - and two countries where tensions were running that high - you have a very dangerous situation.
You need to see Fog of War - MacNemera (who was Secretary of Defense at the time) explains exactly how close we were to nuclear apacolipse - a breath - neather side intended to back down.
Udara - you really don't know what you are talking about, and obviously don't know enough about the Cold War.
Yes the prospect of mutually assured destruction is why they called it the Cold War - but there were a number of occassions that it got very close to being very hot.
Also if you get the chance watch Dr. Strangelove by Kubrick - it was made in 1963 - fiction, but very telling.
The very fact there was a Cold War caused a great deal of Conflict - it is what motivated the Invasion of Vietnam - and the Invasion of Afghanistan - as well as conflicts between Eastern and Western Europe.
If it was still going on we would still have conflicts like this going on and still have the specter of nuclear apacolipse hanging over our head.
- if Mike is your only source then you obviously need to do some more homework on this.
I agree that the Religious fanatics are far more crazy - but they are also far less powerful then Russia and capable of doing far less damage.
Entirely rational people almost destroyed the world.
As for Iraqi Army hiring back former Soldiers - sure - but its still a very different Army -
- there has been critisism domestically of just the extent to which the Army was dismantled - many thought that certain parts of it could have been left in tact to make the reconstruction of it more efficient - and those critics might well be correct.
But regardless the Army had to be more or less disbanded for a time and reconstituted in accordance with new political principals.
We would have to weed out the hardliners and strip a great number of the commanders no matter what - there is no question that there had to be a period of reconstruction as far as the Iraqi military is concerned - the entire Government is being restructured.
And you are still dancing around the essential point - the Insurgency in Iraq is sabotaging the Iraqis ability to reclaim full control of their country
- its obvious that America is the one who took the control away, there is no question about this - but it is equally obvious that America cannot hand control back over until there is a military and police force that is capable providing Security, Law and Order.
As for your last post - please Udara lets avoid making this a semantical debate.
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Haseeb
连接： Apr 21, 2003
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Re: reply
April 4, 2005 - 11:27 AM
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“I disagree on 3 points - Karzi is of course an Afghani, but he is also Washington's man - they origonally appointed him -. “
Karzai is an Afghan Politician, now that he is “Washington’s man “is a coincidence and I would say it is because Washington needed him. Look, I again remind you that this Karzai was there during the 80s and 90s with the same ideas and principles (Anti-extremism) – he knocked on America’s doors often than many, to ask America to take its action seriously, it had no effect. Why? Because, America was not ready to listen. Because for America the creation of the Taliban and those who preceded them was not important – in words of Brezenski. America was shortsighted, visionless – we were not. We knew where the world was heading. And when America saw what people like Karzai was alarming it for years – it had to turn to those people for help. I can tell you one thing, we really appreciate the help we are getting from the US – the US is our biggest supporter right now, but it did not happen by default. It really did not. Our partnership is working well, as long as it is based on good grounds and it will prosper if we remain honest to each other.
“Karzi also used to work for one of the Bush families Oil companies - hate to break it to you”
Very interesting, very very interesting indeed. You are the first i have something as such from. I heard something somewhat similar to this claim from Michael Moore in Fahrenheit 9/11 – he called Karzai an advisor to Unocal. No one has proved that right as yet, and much more of what Michael Moore said is also not proven. Luke, Michael Moore concluded that Khalilzad (The US ambassador to Afghanistan) was a Unocal advisor , there are proves that he was offered to join Unocal’s advising board – but no evidence exists that would tell he did join. There is no evidence of even an offer to Karzai.
Do me a favor, write where you got this. I hope you are not the first one to break this news; some one must have done it before that now you are recalling it. Lets see if your sources for this claim are valid – Luke you are breaking a big news. It is a big claim, come up with more on it.
“The Taliban are Afghanis - and I beleive they were students, in fact many of whome were only small children during the Russian fighting.”
Some Good and some funny facts , sure they are Afghans and they were students (as they claimed).The word Talib means student/seeker. Now , it is funny to dismiss the whole theory of the rise of the Taliban as they were “only small children during the Russian fighting” . Luke, the Taliban movement started amongst hand countable number of anti-soviet fighters. Mullah Omar was not a “small child-ern” during the “Russian fighting”. He had lost an eye and a leg fighting the Russians. By now, he is in his 50s – which means he was at least as old as Karzai during the anti-soviet war. So were many of his other colleagues, I can name them and find their ages etc – but no need for it. And it is not that simple to come clean only because one wouldn’t “find any evidence of America supporting figures like Mullah Omar for instance.” We are talking about where they came from, how and when. And I think it will be stupid to deny the US influence on what was happening in Pakistan concerning Afghanistan in the 80s and what was left by the US to happen in the 90s.
Luke , again I ask you to read about where a good chunk of the CIA money went during the 80s – Luke , it ended up in militant schools and camps run by the Pakistanis. Whose fault was it? Who should make sure that every penny she gives for a cause goes where she wants it to go – the donor.(CAMPS was a place to which the money was pouring-I have no data to base the claim that extremist Schools were place where the money was meant to go - but it did end up in those schools). If you ask Brezenski, he would even deny that it was a fault.
“As for disbanding the Iraqi Army - Haseeb - I think the idea is that Iraq needed a new one - one that wasn't controlled by the Baathists - we aere at war with the former Iraqi army - we didn't want to leave the same command structure that invaded Kuwait - in charge of Iraq - what would be the point of that? - the first step in defeating Saddam was defeating and disbanding the Army.
So a new one must be trained - and the Insurgents are attacking the emerging Iraqi army.”
It is very easy to say, “a new one must be trained”. But to make this claim materialize, you would have to climb mountains. Even if the insurgents were not attacking the Iraqi Army , it would have not been a free ride to building a new army. We are in process of building a new army and it has taken us almost 4 years to get it number 20.000 (and our people are far more patriotic and warriors who defiantly don’t fear serving in an army) – so it is not an easy deal, Luke. Breaking something is easy, making it is tough (very basic). It is amazing to hear you say that it would not work to have the Baathists in the army, while your policy makers have accepted that one of their grave mistakes was to think everyone in the Iraqi army was a devoted Baathist. Again, a mistake by your policy makers and see what is it costing you and the poor people of Iraq. The money that will be spent on bringing together and training a new army will not come from the air – it is either the tax money of NY worker or the Oil of Kirkuk.
“vigilantism and despite the danger recruitment for the Iraqi army is on the rise”-
What are the factors leading to that rise ( if anything as that really is the case ). I can assume that recruitment for Armies in Iraq and US may not be on the rise, I know it is not on the rise in US. Nevertheless, I hope it is a true news – whatever the scale of the rise maybe.
“It is unfortunate that in the end of one conflict lay the seeds of another.”
Fortune has less to do with it- it is more because of the failure of policies. It is more because of shortsighted policies and lack of vision.
“most of them frankly would say it has alot to do with providing domestic populations with a foreign hate object.”
Never heard it often –yes sometimes, but that also from you for most part. Nevertheless, one basic question Luke – who is helping SOME of those governments stay in power.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: reply
April 4, 2005 - 12:25 PM
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"On Americans considering Islam an enemy – I can tell you that this is not true. Americans considering Middle East as a region that hates them is the rather accurate way of putting it." - Haseeb
Yup - think you said that about perfectly - and after that hatred manifested into 9/11 - it was something Americans felt they had to do something about it.
As for why we are hated - Haseeb I think you'll find alot of Americans are a bit more savvey then you imagine as to the WHY - most of them frankly would say it has alot to do with providing domestic populations with a foreign hate object.
Whenever you have an unpopular government which is mistreating its people - and there are many in the Middle-east - that government (and in the middle-east you have classically had state controlled media) - needs to distract the domestic population from thought of revolution and disobedience -
it often does this by finding a foreign hate object - and pushing the peoplethrough education and media to hate this outside force - be it America or Israel.
Part of the reason the Arab states (and yes I know Afghanistan isn't Arab - Bin Laden and his crew are the Arans in Afghanistan) allowed the Palestinian refugee probelm to fester - instead of simply helping them build housing for instance - is because the hatred of Israel helps these corrupt governments stay in power -
The leaders can come out - say some nasty things about Israel or the US, and promise to protect the people.
The Saudis do this all the time - you think Israel is the reason people in Saudi Arabia have no jobs? Of course not - but if you want him to forget about the job he doesn't have - remind him how much he hates Israel.
- Psychologists call it "displacement"
Combine this with ignorance and religious dogmatism and you have a mix that can lead to hatred.
But alot of what you have to say is well taken Haseeb -
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: reply
April 4, 2005 - 12:32 PM
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I disagree on 3 points - Karzi is of course an Afghani, but he is also Washington's man - they origonally appointed him - Karzi also used to work for one of the Bush families Oil companies - hate to break it to you.
The other concerns the Taliban - Most of the Religious extremist fighers that were fighting the Russians in the 80's were Arabs - Bin Laden's group, mostly were not rom Afghanistan.
The Taliban are Afghanis - and I beleive they were students, in fact many of whome were only small children during the Russian fighting.
As I said America had stepped away by the Early 90's - I doubt you will find any evidence of America supporting figures like Mullah Omar for instance.
The third point concerns the Whahabbi schools - America never supported these schools - Saudi Arabia is a wealthy country - it doesn't get money from US. We sell them some small arms but really our support for the House of Saud has more to do with things like stopping Saddam from invading them.
And while American politicains in the 80's may have EXPLOITED the concpet of Jihad - they certainly did not create it - it is a religious idea and belongs to Islam.
Nor in fact does Afghanistan in the 80's mark the first use of violent Jihad - the Jihadist Wars spread Islam throughout Southern Asia and Northern Africa -
- you talk about America thrusting violent Jihad into the mainstream Ilsmaic lexicon - But the Palestinians had been using violent Jihad for DECADES before it was used in your country.
You are trying to Say that America is responsible for the making violent Jihad mainstream - but really figures like Arafat, and the Palestinians had much more to do with it.
As for disbanding the Iraqi Army - Haseeb - I think the idea is that Iraq needed a new one - one that wasn't controlled by the Baathists - we aere at war with the former Iraqi army - we didn't want to leave the same command structure that invaded Kuwait - in charge of Iraq - what would be the point of that? - the first step in defeating Saddam was defeating and disbanding the Army.
So a new one must be trained - and the Insurgents are attacking the emerging Iraqi army.
As more and more Iraqi see their people killed by Insurgents instead of US Soldiers - they are turning on the insurgency - there are reports of vigilantism and despite the danger recruitment for the Iraqi army is on the rise
Finally Udara - the quote you have there from Bruzinki (however you spell it) I agree with him - at the time ending the Cold War was more important -
you reolize that these two superpowers had thousands of Nuclear weapons armed and ready to fire at one another -
It was an extraordinarily dangerous situation - far more dangerous to the fate of the world then the current conflict.
Everything is relative - I don't think you appreciate just how big the Cold War really was.
It is unfortunate that in the end of one conflict lay the seeds of another.
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Udara
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April 4, 2005 - 12:46 PM
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>Finally Udara - the quote you have there from Bruzinki >>>(however you spell it) I agree with him - at the time >ending the Cold War was more important -
Important not in the war and peace context but in the sense of economy and capitalism!
>you reolize that these two superpowers had thousands of >Nuclear weapons armed and ready to fire at one another -
I think Jedimike once explained this clearly. Both parties knew if they would use nukes, they might well as be gone with the enemy. This is the exact reason why nukes were not used.
>It was an extraordinarily dangerous situation - far more >dangerous to the fate of the world then the current >conflict.
I dont think so. If USA was fighting with USSR, you had a clear enemy in the picture. Both parties knew very well that using nuke would mean suicide for both parties.
But now you have to fight with fanatics that your self had fed! And we know for sure that these guys wont hesitate to suicide unlike some USSR folks few years back!
>Everything is relative - I don't think you appreciate just >how big the Cold War really was.
This depends on what exactly the media is creating in our minds.
>It is unfortunate that in the end of one conflict lay the >seeds of another.
Indeed, What more can we expect when leaders take ultra narrow mind decisions!
>I think the idea is that Iraq needed a new one - one that >wasn't controlled by the Baathists
How many former Sadaam's commanders were used by the USA ?
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Udara
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April 4, 2005 - 12:49 PM
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>we didn't want to leave the same command structure that >invaded Kuwait - in charge of Iraq - what would be the >point of that? - the first step in defeating Saddam was >defeating and disbanding the Army. So a new one must be >trained
Police to recruit another 100,000 former members of Saddam's army
January 19, 2005
BAGHDAD (AFP) — The Iraqi police have hired some 50,000 former members of Saddam Hussein's army over the past seven months and should recruit twice that number in the next three years, a high-ranking interior ministry official said.
"Since June, we have recruited about 50,000 soldiers from Saddam Hussein's former army, because they are people who have been well trained and know how to fight. We need people like them in the current situation," Adnan Hadi Al Assadi told AFP in a recent interview.
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Haseeb
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April 4, 2005 - 12:58 PM
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Good morning pals,
I am back with some of my views and I think they are somewhat different to what is in this forum till now , and in some cases I share the same opinions with Udara and Luke.
On Americans considering Islam an enemy – I can tell you that this is not true. Americans considering Middle East as a region that hates them is the rather accurate way of putting it. Now, why the Middle East hates them is a question every American would answer in a different way – that is what I have noticed the past 6 months. Many of them would actually talk of either something connected with Israel or the “freedom” and some of them will be rational enough to say that “because we are milking their resources” – but I am sorry to report that average Americans really don’t have any proper knowledge of what goes on in the Middle East and why. Some would say that some “Arabs” attacked them because they hate “America’s freedom” – something very basic and very ill conceived for a nation that considers itself as THE superior on earth. Now I can give you an example of how much Americans know about the Middle East –many I have met think Afghanistan is an ARAB state, you draw your conclusion.
We have Friday prayers on campus, and you would not believe it if I tell you that it attracts the biggest crowd. Why, because every kid on campus is supposed to take part in two religious prayers each term. Now the crowd gathers for what we call “chapel credit” – but u know what, if they hated Islam they wouldn’t go to Friday prayers even if it helped them get a “Chapel Credit”. The word “hate” is very strong, and we can not use it in every instance– certainly not in case of “Americans hating Islam”. The example I gave above is a simple one, but to me it illustrates a lot. Think about it.
”Now - Calyx - the Taliban were not empowered by the US - The US did empower radical Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 80's to fight the Russians - but by the early 90's America had found other interests.”
Luke, you say “The US did empower radical Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 80's” - so who were the Taliban? Man, they were part of the “radical Islamic extremists” that the US empowered, feed and helped train through its Pakistani friends. Luke, actions have consequences and you are neglecting those consequences. The Hamid Karzai which today can be credited for much of the progress in my country is not a new man, he is a certainly NOT a US made man I can tell you that with solid prove. He is a true Afghan, because he is not extremist. He together with people like Abdul Haq, Masood and Dr.Najeeb- was alarming the US of the consequences of your actions (supporting the extremists) since the 80s. You know how the US policy makers (In the CIA not the State Department) were reacting to him and his friends– Milton Bearden the CIA Islamabad station chief used to call people like him “Liberal art jerk offs ) who can never run Afghanistan. Luke lets take responsibility (maybe partial) for your involvement in creation of a nightmare for my country (The 1992-96 civil war and the Taliban dilemma). You really have to understand how big and bad consequences some of your actions can have – imagine if the US had accepted the solution Hamid Karzai and team were proposing in the late 80s and early 90s . They were calling for a Loya Jirga that would gather around the former king, and you can see what America did to the process by reading some chapters of Steve Coll’s Ghost Wars. I am glade America has realized some of its mistakes , and it did the thing Afghans were proposing 10 years after it was first proposed. You know Luke, USA always (during the 1978-2001 periods) looked at us (Afghanistan) from the eye of Pakistani intelligence, and it paid the price- I think. 9/11‘s roots are no where but in what is called CIA supported Jihad against the Soviet Union (yes the CIA supported “Jihad” –a word that now scares the hell out of many). Luke, the one time Soviet installed President of Afghanistan- Dr.Najeeb Ullah in his last press conference warned “ Afghanistan will become a terrorist base if the US did not change its policy towards it ……” (Go to Ghost Wars) –now what he meant by policy in 1991-2 is hard to understand, but it is true to think that he knew something others came to know ten years later.
“Those simple and "quiet" people in Iraq who you say don't know what democracy is - WENT OUT AND VOTED - 8 million people - women too - 60% of the eligible population.”
My understanding from the issue is that they voted for two happenings to occur- chose a democratic assembly and get one-step closer to US withdrawal from their country. Which of the two reasons was more compelling is beyond my guess. I should not sound pessimist, but I know that this was not THE ideal way of choosing a democratic assembly. But , I also know that I shouldn’t be expecting ideal cases in today’s Iraq , it will be stupid to do so. I can for sure tell that it was THE best step towards a US withdrawal from Iraq, of course much better than blowing up cars and killing innocent school kids. Nothing justifies that!
“How are the Iraqis ever supposed to take control of their own country without an ARMY?” – And who sent that Army home? Who destroyed that Army? – Am I wrong to say HE Ambassador (is it the right word) Paul Bremer. Take responsibility, yet again. Actions have consequences.
“These warlords were in power before we got there - and I suppose the US Army could FORCE these warlords to step down - but then a lot of innocent people will die –“.
About the shared concern regarding the warlords – one sentence, “FORCE” is not the way to go. Empower the alternative, side by the one elected by our people. And when I say side by him, I mean support him in a way that matters. Support can be more aid; can be more political weight on his agendas and siding by him while choosing between him and places like Islamabad. Do not leave us again to the neighboring countries and their intelligence agencies, who may work as your proxies but they have their own agendas (do not doubt that). Stop the misconduct of your troops and covert actors on the ground, get ride of the secret prisons. I do not want my country to be a “global prison” – I really do not, even if for every prison you pay millions. Much “reconstruction” is happening in Afghanistan and it is great to talk about that. It will be even greater if these de-constructions do not happen (Read “One huge US Jail” http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,1439904,00.html)
There is a political process going on in Kabul in regards to dealing with “warlords”. The administration is trying to make the most out of them, they are using their influence and power for good , and in some cases it is paying off. Bringing Ismael Khan (The former governer of Herat and a very strong man in the country) in to the cabinet has been one Karzai’s boldest moves . Ismael Khan now is by far the most active minister in the cabinet , though his past remains blurry and has effects on his present. He just beat a construction worker in public in Herat during the New Year celebrations and actions as such undermine his effectiveness as a minister. Still, the best way to deal with people like him is shrewd politics now – not force. They are weaker now then they were a year ago, this is rare good news from Afghanistan. But, it is not news to celebrate, because it can at any time be altered. Many of them are turning to politics rather then warfare, something to welcome. Though they still posses much of their weapons and contacts beyond Afghanistan.
“But I don't think America should be doing much of anything in Afghanistan at this point without the permission of the elected leadership in Kabul - except hunting for Bin Laden.” –
great point and I can tell you that the hunt for Bin Laden is a joint responsibility of US and the Afghan government . He is much bigger a threat to our country than the US.
“USA and the world need to give MORE AID to Afghanistan which USA-USSR team destroyed for the last 30 odd years!” -
Udara lets put it this way, which the USA-USSR team partially destroyed - because some of our own ill Afghans were also involved in much of the destruction and they do bear responsibility for it.
“Classic case of creating a mess and later trying to eliminate the mess once the mess start haunting the creator of the mess. Sad fact is that so many innocent lives get lost in this process!” –
I can not agree more with anything but this.
- “And every time Iraq or Afghanistan has an Election Bush runs out in front of Americans tauting it like a kid who got an "A" on his report card, after getting a "D" last semester. “ –
Yes, but lets emphasis that elections are not everything, a lot more remains to be done.
” I think the US could be doing more. I think the US turned its attention away too Quickly and got distracted with Iraq.”
I cannot say it better then this and it is still not late. The US can do more and should do more.
“Leaving Afghanistan to its own devices is a mistake we made in the 90's, and it didn't work out very well for US - I would rather not see this mistake repeated.”
A mistake committed once is a mistake, but when repeated it is called something else. I am afraid the US is doing that, look at the budget for Afghanistan and Iraq that the US house of representative passed and see which particular part they cut the money from . They deducted money that was proposed by the administration for “reconstruction” projects in Afghanistan, and they reasoned that it is not a “priority”. Are we going back to the early 90s when Bush, the first, once said about Afghanistan “oh, Is that war still going on?” – I hope not.
“Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, in substance: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War.”
“As for Warlords having the blessing of American troops - America does not have enough troops to police the country - we have about 15,000, whose real job is to hunt Bin Laden.
In order to crush the Warlords it would require at least 3 times as many troops.”
No FORCE – read some of my comments on top.
“We did, we held elections for that exact purpose of empowering the people. “
Don’t take all the credit, I know the US was a big help to us in this – but we were an equal partner and we deserve much of the credit.
“We did not create the Whahabbi schools in Saudi Arabia, we did not create the concept of Jihad.”
You did pour HARD cash in to those schools (the ones in Pakistan- read about where the CIA money used to go during the “Afghan Jihad”.); you did supply weapons to those who misused the JIHAD. And You really played a big role in bringing back in to surface the Violent form of Jihad – using it against your enemy the USSR. Luke, Jihad has a lot of other ways apart from fighting with guns, you can do Jihad with a pen and with your words. I know it is not THE MAINSTREAM jihad now, because the mainstream Jihad of today was shaped in a violent way. Now, sometimes I feel we should have done those forms of Jihad (the pen and words one). I cannot think of leaving my country under USSR invasion, but I can see where it all started. I can see how we were used, and how we let ourselves to be used. Poor us. Read the Brezenski interview, and please respond to it – he was not a random man, he was US National Security advisor.
It is a long post, but it is after long time- so bear it with me. I will try to stay involved in this discussion , but I don’t promise I will. I am starting to use “guerilla” tactics in discussion forums , I post and I escape. I admit that. Unfortunatly , time is not on my side recently. I would love to hit-back at some of the responses ot my posts in some forums , but it will take time.
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Udara
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April 4, 2005 - 12:59 PM
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>The Taliban are Afghanis - and I beleive they were >students, in fact many of whome were only small children >during the Russian fighting.
>As I said America had stepped away by the Early 90's - I >doubt you will find any evidence of America supporting >figures like Mullah Omar for instance.
I dont think you can bet on this point, as your self had earlier mentioned, CIA doesnt care about whoever their hire to get their job done.
Anyway, Supporting radicals means suicide. Thats exactly what happened.
>And while American politicains in the 80's "may have" >EXPLOITED the concpet of Jihad - they certainly did not >create it -
It is euphemism to use "may have" here. It is obvious from the words of Brzezinski what exactly happened.
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Udara
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April 5, 2005 - 02:13 AM
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Luke, As for the cold war danger, its nothing much that what we see between India and Pakistan time to time with nuclear weapons, call it a hair away from the destruction of the world if you want.
And i would not get into argue about your knowledge on IND-Pak threat nor the cold war, getting the discussion into a personal level will make this thread childish and exactly a duplicate of what is going between you and matic some other members in the other thread. So lets avoid personal comments.
And as for US state department writers and fictions, what else can they do other than producing fear in the mind of American public on an external enemy. This reminds me of some state department guys warning of dangers of WMD in Iraq few years back.
Haseeb had read my mind in his other post, i will write more in details in the next post.
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Luke Lieberman
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April 5, 2005 - 02:31 AM
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Hehe - Haseeb - the only government in the middle-east which we are helping stay in power, that I am aware of, which really bothers me is the Saudis.
I would prefer that we were not so supportive of that particular government. But they have alot of Oil frankly - and as I have said before - I am in favor of democratic reform in that country - but deadset against the violent overthrow of the government by radical Islamic elements.
Aside from the Saudis I am not sure who we are supporting right now in the middle east that is such a problem.
As to Karzis connection - http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MAD201A.html
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=1149
but it is the UNOCAL connection you mentioned.
Mind you I have no problem with this, there is no problem with a man trying to make some money, and I can't detect any unethical conduct.
And I don't think there is any question that Karzis loyalty is first and foremost to the Afghani people -
But he certainly has connections to Bush that go back a ways - that is why Bush trusted him in the first place - when Bush appointed Karzi he was not only concerned with the Afghanis - he wanted someone he could trust.
"It is very easy to say, “a new one must be trained”. But to make this claim materialize, you would have to climb mountains"
Of course it is harder to train a new one - is that even a question? There was never any doubt that rebuilding Iraq after Saddam would be a mountain to climb - but Americans are used to climbing mountains.
The point is that the insurgents are not helping in the rebuilding effort when they drive carloads full of explosives into recruitment centers.
And I agree that dismantling the army entirely was a mistake - but I don't imagine they think everyone was a Baathist or they wouldn't be rehiring thousands of former Army officers - as Udara pointed out.
As for waisting our tax dollars - beleive me I hear you.
But if you want to critisize the Administraition in its handling of Iraq - the real critisism is as follows.
Rumsfield's and idiot - he thought only of how to win the war and not the peace - Powell had the right idea all along and no one listened to him.
You see Rumsfield wanted a light and small, technologically based invasion force that presented a small target and could move quickly.
This was very smart strictly in terms of the invasion.
But what was very stupid was to ignore Powell when he suggested that we back up the initial invasion force with a much larger police force which would stabilize the country after the fall of Saddam and impose order.
There were thousands of tons of munitions sitting in dumps which were not secured -
- now those munitions are being fired at US and Iraqi troops.
The US was behind the curve in Iraq for over a year - only now are they getting ahead of the game - and alot of this has to do with the Iraqis getting fed up with the insurgents and foreign fighters tearing up their country.
Finally - Haseeb I only said the Iraqi recruitment was up - not American - that is definately down, as is retention - it is a problem for the Army, but they'll live through it.
And yes - I imagine that America will be Afghanistan's best friend for some time to come - we are invested now - and one thing about Americans is that we do not like to lose - and we would not like to lose your country back to the extremists at this point - regardless of the past history - so I imagine you can sount on us up to a point.
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Kiran
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April 5, 2005 - 03:20 AM
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Udara is right, the cold war that existed between USA and USSR is nothing when compared to the one that is there between India and Pakistan.
In the cold war between USA and CIA, both CIA and FBI from USA as well as KGB from USSR had played their roles well. Both the nations ran for supremacy and in this run, they partnered with many nations across the world.
The end result is that the nations which have chosen to be on any one side have suffered. And Middle East is one such, including Afghanistan. Rich Oil Fields, the GEOGRAPHIC Location, Great Sea routes that help you in attacking you enemy easily, all these attracted them and hence the current crisis.
Policies made by people decades or centuries back spark a light which later ignite the minds of the people in a violent way and thats what is happening now all over the world.
Dallili was asking as to why Muslims are being treated in a different way, more importantly by US and whether you may accept it or not, its a situation that has been enforced by many consulates. It might be for the safety for the nation, considering the huge devastation that took place on 9/11.
Please let me remind you that there were people from many different countries who died in the explosions and some were people whom I know in my immediate circle or through them.
And in the aftermath incidents of 9/11, there were many innocent people who died.
I remember reading a news article where in Bush Declared that they would catch Laden at any cost, but, till now, Laden is alive, infact, the count of Talibans who were dead is less than the number of American Soldiers who lost their lives.
But when we see why 9/11 happened, it goes back to decades, when some policies and decisions made by earlier Governments affected the lives of these people.
Taliban Government was invaded because it resulted in the 9/11 explosion. Did any Government in world take care of the people there earlier when they were suffering under the Taliban Rule?
There were many things that happened in past which are questionable and almost every nation has played its role. Its very well known about the roles of different Security agencies in USA or other parts of world, their methods and policies. And we cant do anything to change them.
Unless you are someone who is related to any of these security agencies or Government, I am afraid that what you know about different issues might be same as what we know about different issues. And each one of us will be aware of our local issues more than the international.
As someone said, every incident that is happening today has a related incident in past, and that incident might be to our knowledge or not.
Governments take decisions, implement them and in the end, its we, the common man who suffers. And many a times, we are not even aware of what is happening in the offices of the premiers, unless someone prefers to write it out as memoirs. Also, it need not be that a single event/point is understood by different people in same way. IT does wary and some times the variance is very high.
Instead of arguing and blaming others, let us work together for a Peaceful and harmonious world and I am sure that it is what TIG is aiming for.
My message is generalized and not pointing to anything and I am aware of it. I wanted to put it this way, cos, the more we dig deep into history and start reviewing the events from different angles, the more deeper the hatred would penetrate into our minds. And that would only cause more problems for us, we the humans.
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Luke Lieberman
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April 5, 2005 - 04:46 AM
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Haseeb your going to Harvard? CONGRADULATIONS - that great. Boston is a great town especially for college - there are about 6 major colleges in the City - you should have alot of fun and learn alot.
Visit Quincy Market.
Kiranmayeev - I like alot of what you had to say - welcome to the discussion.
"Luke, As for the cold war danger, its nothing much that what we see between India and Pakistan time to time with nuclear weapons, call it a hair away from the destruction of the world if you want." - Udara
No intention of making this personal.
The confrontation between the US and Russia was much bigger and more dangerous then the conflict between India and Pakistan -
Neither the Indians nor the Pakistanis have the capaibility of causing the devistation that the US and Russia might have wrought.
Also the Cold War was ideological - so it had the ability to spread and be fought out amongst proxy's - The Kashmire Conflict is essentially a land war over territory - so it isn't spreading anywhere - it just between the two of them.
Russia was moving Nuclear arms into Cuba - The US moved them into Turkey.
I don't see India and Pakistan moving Nuclear weapons around into other countries so as to threaten eachother.
Finally - as to the media creating this impression - that is the knee jerk reflex arguement everyone uses when they argue with an American.
about 6 months ago I visited my mother in an alternative medicine hospital - at this hospital I met Hoopes an 86 year old man - who was the Undersecretary of the Airforce (#2 man) during The Kennedy administraition.
He was litterally in the room with Kennedy during the Cuban Missile crisis and had a front row seat to this crisis.
So when he tells me we came a inch from Nuclear disaster I believe him.
But perhaps you think it was the media that was convincing him.
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Kiran
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April 5, 2005 - 08:07 AM
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DALIII,
ITs a long time since the first post was made, but let me answer you in my views:
Islam is not a contradiction with other religions, it teaches what other religions say, peace, brotherhood, unity, caring for poor, etc. Evil is in minds, not in any religion. Its our thoughts that drive us,and not religions. And anything that is going on in the name of religion is a pretext to save themselves from the wrath of others.
Its true that many Islamic nations are poor at the same time, many rich countries in the world also happen to be Islamic. And this is difference is not related to religion, its based on the Rulers and their economic policies. Some countries turn deserts into gardens and some turn gardens into deserts.
Rather than attribute the economic backwardness to religion, better we say that the Economic policies are to be changed for a better situation.
When Greed overpowers the mind, Humans tend to resort to many activities, to fulfill that greed and thats what is happening, all the time, in past as well as currently.
Bitsy was speaking about Western morals, but again, Morals are something that we define for ourselves and keep on changing with time. People who can adapt themselves to the changing time, which brings change in thinking as well as perceptions of Individuals will live in peace, and people who cant accept this change speak of Religious Morals.
Luke was right when he said that America is a land of different cultures, and I experienced the friendliness of the people personally.
I can say only one thing, all that we as younger generation are facing today is the result of the actions taken by someone in past and the measures that are being taken to rectify the mistakes of past are causing more problems and conflicts rather than remove them.
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Udara
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Re: reply
April 5, 2005 - 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by Haseeb
Because for America the creation of the Taliban and those who preceded them was not important – in words of Brezenski. America was shortsighted, visionless – we were not. We knew where the world was heading. And when America saw what people like Karzai was alarming it for years – it had to turn to those people for help.
“The Taliban are Afghanis - and I beleive they were students, in fact many of whome were only small children during the Russian fighting.”
Some Good and some funny facts , sure they are Afghans and they were students (as they claimed).The word Talib means student/seeker. Now , it is funny to dismiss the whole theory of the rise of the Taliban as they were “only small children during the Russian fighting” . Luke, the Taliban movement started amongst hand countable number of anti-soviet fighters. Mullah Omar was not a “small child-ern” during the “Russian fighting”. He had lost an eye and a leg fighting the Russians. By now, he is in his 50s – which means he was at least as old as Karzai during the anti-soviet war. So were many of his other colleagues, I can name them and find their ages etc – but no need for it. And it is not that simple to come clean only because one wouldn’t “find any evidence of America supporting figures like Mullah Omar for instance.” We are talking about where they came from, how and when. And I think it will be stupid to deny the US influence on what was happening in Pakistan concerning Afghanistan in the 80s and what was left by the US to happen in the 90s.
Luke , again I ask you to read about where a good chunk of the CIA money went during the 80s – Luke , it ended up in militant schools and camps run by the Pakistanis. Whose fault was it? Who should make sure that every penny she gives for a cause goes where she wants it to go – the donor.(CAMPS was a place to which the money was pouring-I have no data to base the claim that extremist Schools were place where the money was meant to go - but it did end up in those schools). If you ask Brezenski, he would even deny that it was a fault.
Haseeb,
The best ever post I have read on Afghanistan, and its great to be written by an Afghan HIMSELF!!
I will read and reply more on the other issues, meantime good luck with your studies and congrats for your admission in Harvard!
cheers,
Udara
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