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SLOVENC
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Re: reply
March 27, 2005 - 05:01 AM
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je pense que les muslimans sont comme les christianes! et aussi je pense que la vie avec les muslimans est normal, et facile, mais je ne comprend pas les americains pourqui ils attacquent les pays islamiques! je ne sais pas qu'est ce que c'est  je ne sais pas si les americains veulent "le monde islamique" comme "le monde christiane". je voudrais que le paix sera exsiste!
(excusez-moi pourqouis mon francais n'est pas bien)
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dali
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Re: reply
March 27, 2005 - 11:07 AM
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sorry if havent written for long period .
any way
i want to thk CALYX and LUKE
i totally agree with Luke when he said that arabs have to resolve their problems .
yes arabs are very late in term of technology, medcine dimocracy ....
but i think that the first thing that arabs have to change is their way of thinking .
Their have to believe that they can do somehing in this world .
they gave a lot in science , physics ...
and they have the human resources to make scientists ...
we can see many arabs working in important companies all round the world and they show their competence ....
and what is nessacery to achieve this is to give more omportance to knowledge , education ,scientists ( because sientists in an arab country is not really assisted , he doesnt feel really motivated neither financially nor ... )
lets tamk a bit about what LUKE said that england had clolinized Iraq for 40 years .
so what do u want to say ??
do u want that USA colonize IRaq also for 40years
i want to remind you Mr Luke that iraqi people fighted english troupes otherwise how had they their dimocracy ???
no one accept that his country be colonized or attaqued
even if their leader is a dictator ...
DO U THINK THAT THE SITUATION IN IRAQ IS BETTER NOW ???
i dont think so ....
i think that in the previous regim they use to be 1/4 of iraqi ppeople who dont feel peace but now 99% of people feel threaten in anytime anywhere .
i know that many Kurd are favorit to this where because they take many profits but accept them no one were favorit nor in iraq neither in USA
and even the oil , americans havent find the solution to exploit it .
every day we listen to fire in oil canalization(oil line )
so the solution now is to re estalish the max of iraq infrastructure , politic area ,...
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Martin Tairo M.
beigetreten: Aug 18, 2004
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Yes we can, they are also humans.
March 30, 2005 - 03:10 AM
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The idea that people have of Muslims is at times offending. The idea that a person being an arb is autometically a terrorist is dishertening.
It is time we treated muslims who are law abiding as fellow humans and gave them the opportunities that they trully deserve.
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dali
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March 30, 2005 - 11:08 AM
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i want to thank u all.
well Luke concerning the opinion of iraqi people i dont share idea .
i know that in CNN BBC FOX .... USA channels are showing the war in iraq as a liberating war and it s the request of iraqi people
but be sure LUKE that loosing friends parents brothers ... and living in horror, afraid to go out ..... is much difficult to support and to accept .
i dont think that if other country come to u and says we ll give to u alot of money 10000000000$ and let us destroy your country and killing your parents .. i dont think they ll accept .
well i m with u that SAddam was a dictator that he had killed a lot of Kurd people but we have not the right to killl thousand of people who in general dont know the truth
they are simple , poor person they dont know what is dimocracy they are linving qietly .. because you have to keep in mind that living in arab way is not the same then living an amercan life
its different
arabs have their culture and they have to devellop a dimocracy according to their needs and their culture
an Americin model may dont be suitable to an arab country and we see now how Sunna and Chiaa are opposed ...
now the game was played and we have to think about the way to reconstruct IRAQ and i hope that the situation will be better even if i seee that is extremly complicated espacially when i see that many AL QAADA member re now in IRAQ . but when SADDAm was there ZARKAOUI couldnt enter to iraq 
any way we hope that the situation is getting better .
concerning 11/9 i want to inform you that many arabs were against this act and i personnaly shared the feeling of Americians because no one have the right to kill innocent people whaterver was the reoson .
and since you assisted to this attack and see the agony and feel this fear .... just think of millions of people all around the world who vdaily feel the same feelings who loose daily a member of their family ......
ITS REALLY PITY
WE ARE IN 21 CENTURY
A CENTURY OF TECHNOLOGY
A CENTURY THAT WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY TO COLLECT OUR ENERGY AND OUR WORKS TO PREVENT THIS EARTH TO LIVE IN PEACE TOGETHER TO EXCHANGE CULTURE AND TO ENJOY LIVING WITH ALL THE PROGRESS WE VE MADE ......
so may tommorrow be better for all of us .
thanx
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dali
beigetreten: Oct 9, 2004
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Re: reply
March 30, 2005 - 11:09 AM
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i want first of all thank u .
well Luke concerning the opinion of iraqi people i dont share idea .
i know that in CNN BBC FOX .... USA channels are showing the war in iraq as a liberating war and it s the request of iraqi people
but be sure LUKE that loosing friends parents brothers ... and living in horror, afraid to go out ..... is much difficult to support and to accept .
i dont think that if other country come to u and says we ll give to u alot of money 10000000000$ and let us destroy your country and killing your parents .. i dont think they ll accept .
well i m with u that SAddam was a dictator that he had killed a lot of Kurd people but we have not the right to killl thousand of people who in general dont know the truth
they are simple , poor person they dont know what is dimocracy they are linving qietly .. because you have to keep in mind that living in arab way is not the same then living an amercan life
its different
arabs have their culture and they have to devellop a dimocracy according to their needs and their culture
an Americin model may dont be suitable to an arab country and we see now how Sunna and Chiaa are opposed ...
now the game was played and we have to think about the way to reconstruct IRAQ and i hope that the situation will be better even if i seee that is extremly complicated espacially when i see that many AL QAADA member re now in IRAQ . but when SADDAm was there ZARKAOUI couldnt enter to iraq
any way we hope that the situation is getting better .
concerning 11/9 i want to inform you that many arabs were against this act and i personnaly shared the feeling of Americians because no one have the right to kill innocent people whaterver was the reoson .
and since you assisted to this attack and see the agony and feel this fear .... just think of millions of people all around the world who vdaily feel the same feelings who loose daily a member of their family ......
ITS REALLY PITY
WE ARE IN 21 CENTURY
A CENTURY OF TECHNOLOGY
A CENTURY THAT WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY TO COLLECT OUR ENERGY AND OUR WORKS TO PREVENT THIS EARTH TO LIVE IN PEACE TOGETHER TO EXCHANGE CULTURE AND TO ENJOY LIVING WITH ALL THE PROGRESS WE VE MADE ......
what is missing is this discussion between west and east
arabs , muslims christians jewishs .....
so may tommorrow be better for all of us .
thanx
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calyx
beigetreten: Jan 1, 2005
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Re: reply
March 31, 2005 - 03:09 AM
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Originally posted by DALIII
lets tamk a bit about what LUKE said that england had clolinized Iraq for 40 years .
so what do u want to say ??
do u want that USA colonize IRaq also for 40years
i want to remind you Mr Luke that iraqi people fighted english troupes otherwise how had they their dimocracy ???
no one accept that his country be colonized or attaqued
even if their leader is a dictator ...
Said well DALLI
The US is doing this because they think that now it is their turn,
[/B]
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Luke Lieberman
beigetreten: Feb 13, 2003
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March 31, 2005 - 05:33 AM
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DALI -
Those simple and "quiet" people in Iraq who you say don't know what democracy is - WENT OUT AND VOTED - 8 million people - women too - 60% of the eligable population.
So your claims that Iraqis are some unsophisticated group that can't understand a relatively simple concept as democracy is simply untrue.
And right now - THE INSURGENTS are the ones killing Iraqis - leaving them without parents.
The Insurgents are carbombing Iraqi Police headquaters and Army centers.
How are the Iraqis ever supposed to take control of their own country without an ARMY?
The Insurgents are sabotaging Iraqi efforts to form a government.
If you want America to leave, then the Iraqis have to form a government capable of protecting itself and its citizens, and imposing Law and Order.
I think those Iraqis who want to draft a constitution instead of carbombing Iraqi police - have the right idea.
As for the Sunni and Shia being opposed - Dali these tribes have been opposed for hundreds of years -
- you honestly think the division between Sunni and Shia is due to America? When the Sunni's ruled the country under Saddam, the Shia were persecuted.
Sunni and Shia are divided throughout the Middle east.
Democracy tries to build a structure where groups in disagreement can find an often passionate, but always peaceful - means to disagree.
In America we have different factions who disagree heavily on alot of issues - people protest things all the time here, and fight political battles - but despite its rancor - its always peaceful.
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Luke Lieberman
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April 1, 2005 - 04:32 AM
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Udara - let me make it simple - has the US installed a Shah type figure in either Afghanistan or Iraq?
if not what is the relevence of Iran 1952?
I am not ignoring what happened there - I just don't see how it means that America cannot be honest in its attempt to create Democracy now.
During that same period in the 50's the US DID create Democracies in Germany, Japan, and South Korea which are still in power today.
"Bush is just a helpless puppet of American policy makers, thats it." - Udara
What??? You can't be serious - I'm not even going to answer this one. I have never heard anyone call Bush a helpless puppet before - he certainly doesn't look helpless to me.
Bush does have alot of pressure on him from the American people - who Clearly expect to see him deliver on these promises of Democracy, particularly after he lied about the WMD - this is certainly true -
- and every time Iraq or Afghanistan has an Election Bush runs out in front of Americans tauting it like a kid who got an "A" on his report card, after getting a "D" last semester.
Now if America is supporting Warlords as you say - I wonder what you think the reason for this is -
I do not beleive that they are supporting Warlords at the expense of the central government - since Karzi was origonally appointed by Bush, and we are propping up the government in Kabul.
It is not in the US's favor for there to be instability in Afghanistan.
But your point is well taken in one respect - I think the US could be doing more. I think the US turned its attention away too Quickly and got distracted with Iraq.
I think we should be giving Kabul more AID $$.
Leaving Afghanistan to its own devices is a mistake we made in the 90's, and it didn't work out very well for US - I would rather not see this mistake repeated.
Opium production is back up to new highs - frankly if Kabul wants to disempower the warlords they would outlaw the Opium trade and crack down.
Also Udara - as one who abhorrs violence - I ask you - what would happen if Kabul and the US started cracking down on the Warlords hard - alot of innocent people would die in the crossfire - these warlords would not go down without a fight.
In part this is why Kabul is not taking the measures necissary to put down the warlords -
The Afghanis voted for Karzi because they thought he would put an end to the war in that country - if they take on the Warlords too forcefully, Afghanistan will find itself in another Civil War.
I don't have any easy answers for you. The Warlords are an entrenched power which is difficult to dislodge without much bloodshed -
So either you fight a Warlord, or you have to cut some kind of deal with them - you can't do nothing, or neither, you have to pick the lesser of two evils, whatever you think that is - and hope that with time the society will change.
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Udara
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Re: reply
April 1, 2005 - 10:59 AM
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>i know that in CNN BBC FOX .... USA channels are showing >the war in iraq as a liberating war and it s the request >of iraqi people
Can you clarify this claim on "BBC" with some solid facts?
I totally agree that FOX news can be included in this but British papers and media had been one of the worst CRITICS of Iraq war.
>the Russians propped up alot of these dictators - invaded >Afghanistan which sparked the Radical Islamic movements >like the Taliban and Bin Laden's. Russia also greatly >contributed to an arms escalation in the middle-east - >they sold alot of weapons to Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria etc.
Luke, Look what made USA to support Sadaam bro!
American CIA supported to oust A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADER and give control to a horrible dictator like Shah in the coup 1953!
And things went a bit bad and the Islamic extreme elements took control ousting Shah! The people who suffered under the American funded Shah were obviously pretty anti American! Thats common sense!
And then having an anti American font in Iran, USA supported equally horrible Sadaam in Iraq~~!
Luke bro, look what is happening in Afghanistan ? Look at all the horrible acts of war lords and the American support to human right abuses of these war lords!
If you want, i will give more inputs on this!
Udara
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Udara
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America, Iran, and Operation Ajax: The Burden of the Past!
April 1, 2005 - 11:15 AM
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http://www.lewrockwell.com/latulippe/latulippe41.html
by Steven LaTulippe
In essence, the United States had engaged in a massive covert operation designed to remove a democratically elected leader from power and reinstall an authoritarian monarch (a move which makes a mockery of our currently stated desire to "spread democracy" in the Middle East).
This affair had several disastrous ramifications for the future of American-Iranian relations. First, the Shah, from that point forward, was viewed as a creature of America. Consequently, America became an accessory to his every oppressive act during the subsequent 26 years of his rule. Second, the American embassy in Tehran was permanently marked as a "nest of spies" in the eyes of the Iranian populace. And third, Iranian democracy was strangled in its crib.
The next time the populace rose to overthrow the Shah (in the 1970s), they viewed America as their enemy and were cheering a leader who was significantly less democratic than Mossadeq. When rumors began circulating that the Americans were going to bring the Shah back via yet another covert operation, the Iranian mobs responded by seizing the US embassy in Tehran and holding its workers hostage.
If Mossadeq’s regime had been permitted to continue, it is entirely possible that Iran could have evolved into an authentic democracy. American interventionism destroyed that opportunity and set the stage for many of the tragedies currently haunting the Middle East.
If America is ever to have even remotely cordial relations with Iran, we must accept responsibility for the terrible effects of Operation Ajax and admit that we had no right to intervene in a controversy that was wholly the business of the Iranian people. That exploit was unworthy of the Land of Washington and Jefferson.
While the American public often quickly forgets the interventions and mischievous actions of its government, our overseas victims seldom do. The current climate of international terrorism should prompt the American people to take a more active interest, since these transgressions often come back to haunt us in the most unexpected ways.
January 18, 2005
(Steven LaTulippe [send him mail] is a physician currently practicing in Ohio. He was an officer in the United States Air Force for 13 years.)
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: reply
April 1, 2005 - 11:20 AM
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Udara - bro I think blaming the US for the actions of the US warlords is exactly the kind of thing you enguage in all the time - and it is NOT legitimate critisism.
These warlords were in power before we got there - and I suppose the US Army could FORCE these warlords to step down - but then alot of innocent people will die -
- and then you would just critisize us for acting, as opposed to critisizing the US for not acting.
It seems to me that it should be up to Karzi - since the Afghanis just ELECETED him, to decide what should be done with the Warlords - and if he wants Americas help dispatching them - I am sure he would have it.
But I don't think America should be doing much of anything in Afghanistan at this point without the premission of the elected leadership in Kabul - except hunting for Bin Laden.
Finally as for Iran in 1953 - I can't see how that makes a mockery of current efforts to democratize the middle-east - it was 50 years ago.
What is relevant is what they are doing now - the Elections in 2 different countries in the last 2 years is more relevant then a coup over half a century ago.
Udara your Iran arguement just doesn't cut it - think about it, most of the people making Policy for the American government right now were not even BORN when the Shah took power in Iran.
President Bush was like 7 years old in 1952.
I would ask you to consider the possibility that perhaps AMerica feels a bit differently about democratizing the middle-east then it did 50 years ago.
Come to think of it I think the Japanese feel a bit differently then they did in the 40's as well.
Russia feels a bit differently about Communism now then they did in the 50's too.
Things change - its really pretty simple - and if the Shah 50 years ago is the best you can do - it is not very convincing.
- half of the people making
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Udara
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Re: reply
April 1, 2005 - 11:30 AM
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>"I saw 9/11 with my bare eyes - I am from New York - >beleive me when I walked on the ashes of New York - there >was no question in my mind that the Army was going to find >the people responsible - where ever they might be - and >deal with them. This is WHY we went into Afghanistan."
Fine, Now you all got justice for 9/11 . Great!
Can you tell me WHEN and WHERE will the people who had been and who ARE getting destroyed in thousands due to American atrocities will get their justice done ? WHEN and WHERE ???
And if they are not given the justice, WHY ?
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Udara
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Re: reply
April 1, 2005 - 12:10 PM
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>These warlords were in power before we got there - and I >suppose the US Army could FORCE these warlords to step >down - but then alot of innocent people will die -
>- but then alot of innocent people will die - - and then >you would just critisize us for acting, as opposed to >critisizing the US for not acting.
Now come on Luke, how are you arguing that acting right now against obvious injustice and human rights abuses done by war lords with the SUPPORT of USA is a threat to human lives comparing to all the human lives lost of the so called "wise acting" which were obviously not against the war lords.
US-led coalition continues to support Afghan warlords
27. February 2005, 01:47
By Mariana Baabar
ISLAMABAD (The News) - The United States and other international supporters of President Hamid Karzai are not serious in withdrawing support from militia commanders and regional warlords inside Afghanistan, as the US-led coalition mostly rely on these chieftains in its operations against al-Qaeda and Taliban. The international coalition is rather empowering them militarily and economically at the expense of the central government, said reliable sources.
Sometime back The News had extensively reported on how the US-led coalition and President Karzai himself were reluctant to move against these warlords for political reasons, under whose supervision poppy fields flourish and consequently drug barons prosper.
"The coalition must not give political, military or economic support to any commander who refuses to accept Kabul’s authority," said Samina Ahmed, South Asia project director of International Crisis Group (ICG).
The ICG like many other independent groups and individuals is worried about the future of Afghanistan where the US-led coalition takes one step forward and two backward to ignore the militia commanders in the name of stability to the Afghan nation.
The ICG says even the two years old process of disarmament, demobilisation and reintegration (DDR) of forces, known as Afghanistan’s New Beginning Programme (ANBP), has worrying gaps and weaknesses. If these are not addressed soon, militia networks will remain a key destructive element in the country’s political and economic life.
"DDR is vital for Afghanistan, but the ultimate fate of the process is now under serious question," says Robert Templer, director of Crisis Group’s Asia Programme.
The ANBP has not made significant inroads in disarming the powerful Tajik-dominated units in Kabul and the Panjsher. It has also not kept pace with the evolving nature of Afghanistan’s militias associated with governors or district administrators. And it is now starting to make tentative plans for tackling the threat posed by unofficial militias, which have been outside its mandate. These militias are maintained by most contending regional and local forces, including registered political parties.
Political and military analysts in Afghanistan increasingly recognize that there has been a fundamental change in the commanders’ priorities during the past three years. Most no longer see the need to maintain large stocks of heavy weaponry, since the coalition presence precludes the waging of open warfare. Instead, they have opted to maintain leaner, lighter armed forces adequate to protect their political, military and economic interests, including narcotics trafficking.
US Protection and Investigations (USPI) is a private American security company. A majority of the men on the USPI payroll are associated with private militias and have not gone through any formal DDR channels. Many have used their authority to engage in criminal activity including drug trafficking, charges the ICG.
Militia leaders have frequently managed to subvert DDR with the tacit support of the central government and/or the US-led coalition. A key element in this is the reassignment of Afghanistan Military Forces (AMF) commanders to civilian posts, particularly as governors and police chiefs.
These offices fall outside the ambit of ANBP, so commanders can employ their former militiamen as police, maintain patronage links with sub-commanders, and protect their economic interests.
A commander on the Kabul-Kandahar road reportedly transported large quantities of heroin from Shajui in Zabul province to Helmand, the province bordering Kandahar, using marked highway police vehicles and police armed with machineguns and AK-47 rifles. Although the commander was dismissed after US military forces uncovered his activities, he is said to retain command over the highway police in his sector and remains involved in narcotics trafficking.
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Udara
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April 1, 2005 - 12:44 PM
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>I would ask you to consider the possibility that perhaps >AMerica feels a bit differently about democratizing the >middle-east then it did 50 years ago.
Luke. I think you are failing to see the point, in your writing you had mentioned almost everything with Russia and other nations involvements in middle east WITH OUT even mentioning a single action of USA which created problems.
<If>
Understand luke, Bush is just a helpless puppet of American policy makers, thats it.
About having elections in two different countries including Afghanistan :
Luke, try to understand the fact that Afghans are still suffering a lot in the hands of American supported war lords in that country. USA and the world need to give MORE AID to Afghanistan which USA-USSR team destroyed for the last 30 odd years!
It seems right now the Afghan government is mainly depending on money earned by drugs! Is that what you mean by liberation ? Afghan women are not just harrased as in TALIBAN days but RAPED in the hands of war lords! Is that how some people liberate women ?
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Udara
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Re: reply
April 1, 2005 - 12:55 PM
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>Finally as for Iran in 1953 - I can't see how that makes a >mockery of current efforts to democratize the middle-east -> it was 50 years ago.
It indeed is a root cause for many happenings.
There are people who supported Sadaam in this administration, isnt it? A result of a process which started from 50 years back. You JUST can not forget the blood stained past my friend!
Classic case of creating a mess and later trying to eliminate the mess once the mess start haunting the creator of the mess. Sad fact is that so many innocent lives get lost in this process!
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