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dali
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reply
March 5, 2005 - 02:37 AM
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ILL WRITE IN FRENCH THEN IN ENGLISH :
AFGANISTAN , iraq , syria, iran ....
tous ces pays et bien d'autre sont aux yeux des americans (comme etant le puissance mondial ) et seront pour les puissance qui viennent des pays de mals
est ce vune ocincidences qu'ils soient des pays mesulmans ?
il ya t ils un rapport entre l islam et le mal ???
ou faut il voir les chose d'un autre cote
est ce l islam en contradiction avec les principes occidentales , ou est ce en contradiction aves les autres religions ???
ou faut it croire qu'une puissance mondiale a peur de l ISLAM ;
pourrons nous vivre en paix avec les mesulmants ??
j'ai bq entendu dans les media que l'islam est l'ennemi n1 de USA ;WHY ??????
pourtant si en analyse l'etat de ces pays mesulmants nous remarquons qu'ils sont des pays faibles economiquement , politiquement .....
mais malgre ce il font peur aux americains soynons plus precis CES POULATIONS QUI LEUR FONT PEUR .
je voudrais bien discuter ces points ensemble
merci
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Kiran
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Re: reply
March 7, 2005 - 01:57 AM
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can u post ur question in English please?
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Lucia
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Re: reply
March 7, 2005 - 03:22 AM
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My attempted translation (followed by a response) - Note: I attempted to underline two parts that I am not sure I was able to understand correctly, however, I learned that I don't know how to underline things on these posts. If I got anything wrong, I sincerely apologize, but I don't think I have strayed very far from the intended meaning anywhere.
"Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran...
All of these countries, as well as others, are and shall remain, in the eyes of Americans (being from the world power), advocates/supporters of power that comes from evil countries. Is it a coincidence that these are all Muslim countries? Is there a connection between Islam and evil? Or should we look at things from another perspective? Is Islam at odds with Western principles, or is it at odds with other religions? Or should we believe that a world power is afraid of Islam? Can we live in peace with Muslims?
I have heard a lot in the media that Islam is the number 1 enemy of the US – why??? Despite the fact that, upon analysis, we find that these Muslim countries are living in a weak economic and political (etc.) state, Americans are still afraid of them, or else, more precisely, it is these populations that they are afraid of.
I would very much like to discuss these points with others.
Thank you."
- by DALIII
Well, North Korea was also pinpointed as being part of the so-called "Axis of Evil," although they are not a Muslim country.
Concerning the question "Is Islam at odds ('in contradiction') with Western principles"...in my opinion, from what I understand of Islam values and principles and Western ones, Islam is actually at odds with the West, morally speaking.
In all fairness and impartiality, I think the truth is that if Americans knew what many Muslims were like (as individuals) and what the nature and intentions of Islam were, we could live in relative peace. In fact, from speaking with Muslims, it seems as if many of them are coming to live more and more in harmony with Western principles and morals, so even the moral differences are diminishing.
It is the Islamic terrorists that have everyone scared and I think the words you say you hear in the media are a rash over-reaction resulting from the fear. Maybe it gives some kind of feeling of security to the people that the people in power will not allow something like 9/11, or any of the terrorist acts that have happened since 9/11, happen again.
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dali
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Re: reply
March 7, 2005 - 06:37 AM
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first of all i want to thank BITSY for her translation which is perfect .
and then , concerning NOTH KOREA i think what u say is true but if we see the way the USA is leading with this subject we can see that there are no threat , no using of force temrs (war...) they also prerfer politic resolution
but if we turn to IRAN the USA changre the tune (ton ) they always threat , dont want to discuss ....
so in my opinion the probleme is that these countries(arabs) are not strong enough to fear the super power and tit can do whaterver it want because its the super power to stop or to dont let these countries own weopons , ...
and that for many reoson that ll discuss ....
concerning the second point , im from an islamic country TUNISIA and we have nothing agianst western countries
in contrary i think that we should to se western as a model to economic, dimocracy ...success.
the problem with islamic terrorists (wich i want you to give a difinition) (in my opinion )
if we take a look to this person we find that a mojority are illetate and dont have job
so they are using islamic duty (principes) wrongly
i talk hear about attacks of western country (in usa,spain ...)
so this person have nothing to loose so they are struggling in the name of islam just to show there seleves and to say we are here and we ll show to the world what are we capable to do .
but if we read KORAN we ll find nothing which say to muslims you have to combat no n muslims ;;NO
THERE IS NO VERSE
just one case is that others come and kick you out of your home and country or declare war just in that case muslims have to combat .
i wont talk about irak and palastine ...
we can discuss this .....
SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH
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ArfaouiSabri
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le pur hasard
March 7, 2005 - 06:47 AM
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la phrase la plus significative qui m'a attiré est il ya t'il une coincidence que ces pays soit dans la ligne de mire du pantagone.
la verité est que ces pays represente la derniére ligne de defence devant le projet amperialique de l'administration americaine et le trou à tarvers lequel les americains vont s'infiltrer en asie pour tenir tete à la nouvelle puissance jaune montante ;La CHINE.
la verité est que l'invasion de l'AFGHANISTAN n'était qu'un début d'une suite de guerre -a savoir l'IRAK prochainement la SYRIE ou l'IRAN- mene par une administration de guerre afin de neutraliser les dernier forts du nationailsme arabe et imposer aux palestiniens un compromis non equitable.
la verité est que la verité ne se presente pas dans les cioncidences.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: reply
March 7, 2005 - 11:30 AM
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Dali - if you think Americans edon't regard North Korea as a threat your just being foolish -
as to the "not using arms" with NK - the US has NK surrounded by arms and has the highest troop concentraition just over the boarder in South Korea - that they have anywhere but Iraq.
so it is entirely innaccurate - the reason NK hasn't been attacked is because of the consequences - they have an enormous conventianal arsinal and apparently nuclear weapons, they sit dangerously close to two key allies - South Korea, and Japan.
If NK were to ever attack Japan the US would be bound by the treaties of WW2 to protect Japan - basically if a full scale war broke out many many many South Koreans and Japanese would die - and this is what is staying Americas hand when it comes to North Korea.
This threat did not exist in the same way when it came to dealing with Iraq.
Now Dali as to Islam being the enemy of the United States - this is simply not so - and Americans certainly don't see it that way.
Turkey is one of our best allies, as is Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait, Qatar - we don't have a problem with these countries and certainly do not see their Islamic people as evil or enemies.
Iran is a country which we have been fighting for a long time - even there it is not the Iranian people - so much as the unelected Mullahs which Americans find concerning.
Think for a moment please - do you think America was concerned with Saddam because he was Muslim? was he very religious? or was he a secular leader?
What America has a problem with are all of the dictatorships which are repressing the people in the regoin, holding them back politically and economically.
the administraition feels that it is the political and economic repression in the middle east which is fueling an environment of extremism and terrorism.
While the US would certinaly like to knock over governments like that in Syria - is this such a bad thing? The Assad government is based on a very slim minority, and then on intimidation and brutality - the regoin would be better off if Assad was out of power and the people could select their own leadership.
So in short - I don't think many Americans regard this as a conflict with "Islam"
What Americans regard as
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Ahmed Benmussa
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I am a muslim !!
March 8, 2005 - 05:53 AM
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Hello All .. thanks for discussing this subject .. it's very important ..
I'm a MUSLIM and I'm LIBYAN, and that could mean all the threaten to americans who think that we are the evil of this world and if they can get over us the whole world will live in peace ever after.
Let me tell you about the meaning of the word "ISLAM" , this word comes from the word "SALAM" which means letterly "PEACE", which means that this is the religion of peace, not terrorism!
But let's discuss another point of view .. u know .. i don't agree bombing the innocent americans, coz they R innocent for god's sake, but what do u think that weak muslims can do about an american navy ship that is trying to control thier own water and thier own oil resouces - like the one that was bombed in Yemen for example - , america is threatening the whole world all the time for all the reasons, and the dectators r trying to keep themselves in charge, thereofe the people of these countries are not satisfied and trying to change the situation in feasible ways, and here comes terrorism.
When America leaves msulims live in peace, oh, belive me .. they'll forget all about it !!!
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dali
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thx
March 8, 2005 - 07:15 AM
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thank u LUKE for your intervention .
iwant to answer 1 point about SYRIAN PRESIDENT MR BACHAR
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: reply
March 8, 2005 - 07:28 AM
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AAQ - I am sorry thatyou think Americans see Muslims as Evil - they certainly do not.
I can tell you as an American - that if you talk to other Americans they do not think of Islam as Evil or those who follow it -
Remember that America is very multi-cultural - all kinds of people are American - Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Arab, Kurd, Jewish, Mexican, Brazilian, Cuban, Columbian, English, French, German, Italian - and many many Africans -
When people in the middle-east think of Americans they think of white people - but this is not really American - Americans come in all flavors -
This is why America is a tolerant culture - that does not regard any religion as "evil" - we have religious freedom - there are no laws in America banning or restricting Islam - and we have millions of Muslims.
I do think that if you asked the average American about the Middle-east - they would regard it as a troubled and dangerous area.
I think if you asked them about Syria, or Lybia, for instance Americans would not like the governments of these countries -
- these governments they would regard as Evil - yes Col. Kaddafi is generally disapproved - no one wants to see him with Nukes.
And when it comes to Fundamentalist Islam - such as that preached by Iranian Mullah's which is very intolerant - then we object of course.
In Iran the dominant religion persecutes all other religions - Jews and Christians are persecuted - women are treated as property - we object to this.
I don't beleive that this is the true heart of Islam - to oppress women and descriminate against minorities - and to support terrorist organizations like the government of Iran does -
The Taliban for instance was bad government - women could be beaten for going outside alone and showing their face - Americans simply do not understand this behavior.
I don't beleive that the Taliban version of Islam is the true spirit of Islam.
Demegogues like Bin Laden claim to kill in the name of Islam - but he does not practice true Islam either - he does not worship god - he worships himself.
I do not beleive that Bin Laden preaches or practices true Islam -
For lack of a better term we call this "radical Islam" or "fundamentalist Islam" - and this we both object to and perceive a threat from.
But peaceful Islam - I don't think bothers really anyone who is normal person.
I have freidns who are Muslim - no one objects to their beleifs -
American core value is that people have the right to blieve in and follow whatever religion they choose, so long as it does not advocate violence against others.
The First Amendment to the Constitution protects "freedom of religion"
What people object to is for instance in Saudi Arabia - there is no freedom of religion - Jews are outright persecuted - and Christians cannot even build churches anywhere in Saudi Arabia - Muslims get all the benefits and Dhimmi are second class citizens -
How would you feel if I told you that muslims could no longer build Mosques in America? You would say it is unfair - and yet if you preach Christianity in many Islamic countries you can be arrested - and if you preach Judiasm you will proabaly be shot.
think about it.
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dali
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thx
March 8, 2005 - 07:42 AM
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thank u LUKE for your intervention .
iwant to answer 1 point about SYRIAN PRESIDENT MR BACHAR .
I want to say ( im not a syrian ) that BACHAR is one of the best arab leader frankly he hasa large horizon view .
but at the point of a dimocratic election of presidents in arab countries i m totally with u that most of arab leaders are not elected dimocratily ..
but i want also to say that the USA has a big part of the responsability .
may be u dont know the truth as well as me but as i know 99%of arab leaders are put by USA . thatswhy they also in a hurry to satisfy USA adminitration .
u can say that USA try to bring dimocracy to many arab country like :SAUDIA, syria ....
i m totaly convinced that arabs have to change their intern policy to give more freedom to expression , ...
but its their buisness and they have to do this by their selves .
USE have not the right to impose something just in case where it declares war or present a big threat .
in the case of iran , yes we dont want to pocess nuclear weopon , neither israel nor anny country .
sure we haveto develop this weaopon to protect the earth from an aventual meteorit crash or ...
what we hope isthat every body live in peace in this earth : american europeans arabs christian juich .... have the right to live
in contrary, arabs have a lot to learn from americans technologies , (dimocracy ) ...
and to have good relations with all the countries .
personally i admire americans progress in term of technology and computer as well as all werstern progress and i hope that arabs wake up and dress road of developpement which dont oppose its traditions and religion which is not opposed to any developpement .
thank you again 
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dali
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sorry
March 9, 2005 - 04:30 AM
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thx mr luke
first of all i want to make think clear
im didnt say that "Americans see Muslims as Evil" im sorry
i dont think so and ill not think so .
i have nothing which oppose me to americain in contrary and i ve said that .
i speek about some USA ADMINISTRATION ACTION
and i ve said i admire USA as country of dimocracy , freedom and cultural diversity . and we should learn a lot about its tech , liberty.....
so dont missjudge me .
i want to discuss what americain administration is doing
and how can it bring peace and contribute to the earth developpement , reducing poverty , famine ....
and is by force that it can achieve this .
im discussing the arab country because in our days are the major problem to USA ADMINISRATION ;
i want to discuss to straight way o live in peace together .
i repeat I ONT SPEEK ABOUT AMERICAINS ;
thx
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: reply
March 9, 2005 - 05:25 AM
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actually carolemiyoba I think if you want to talk about roots of conflict then you cannot simply talk in terms of the US and the Middle-east - it is broader than this - it is more the West and the Middle-east.
Both England and France spent far more time occupying for more territory than the US has - the US is occupying Iraq for about 2 years now - the English hoccupied Iraq for like 20 years.
You also cannot discount the role of countries like Russia in conflcit in the middle-east - the Russians propped up alot of these dictators - invaded Afghanistan which sparked the Radical Islamic movements like the Taliban and Bin Laden's.
Russia also greatly contributed to an arms escalation in the middle-east - they sold alot of weapons to Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria etc.
As a counterbalance the US was selling weapons to Israel.
Also you canot discount the role of Nazi Germany WW2 in modern Arabic politics.
The Middle-east became a battleground during WW2 particularly between the British who were occupying, and their enemies the Germans.
The Germans had all kinds of SS officers in the Middle-east - and North Africa - ever see the film Casablanca?
Basically the Nazis supported alot of violent insurgent groups in the Middle-east - for instance there was a pro-nazi coup in Iraq in the 40's lead by Saddam's Uncle and benefactor.
the Baathist party in Syria had roots there as well - and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - a cheif Palestinian religious leader was main ally of Hitler - aftter the Brits kicked him out of Palestine for being a trouble maker he moved to Berlin and made radio addresses to the Middle-east inciting violence against the Jews.
Nazi propoganda has I think contributed greatly to the Arab/Israeli conflict.
Obviously Americas Oil interests have played a role in conflict in the regoin.
But the simple fact is also that the Arabs themselves have ALOT of internal conflicts which greater powers sometimes use to their advantage - Sunni Vs. Shia conflicts - just look at the Iran/Iraq war.
Sure Russia, China, France, and the US were selling arms to the two warring parties - but the conflict itself was between Iraq and Iran.
there is no avoiding that alot of the problems in the Middle-east were caused by the people who live there.
I think one of the legitimate criticisms of Arab society is that there is a major avoidence of responsibility - they like to pass blame onto others - be it the US or Israel, or whoever - instead of facing up to the fact that Islam used to be a world leader in science, politics, philosophy - basically everything - and they have fallen behind in part because they avoid taking responsibility for themselves.
They need to stop trying to blame everyone else for their problems because this will get them nowhere - and instead look inward and deal with the problems in their society.
Dogmatic religious authority such as there is in Iran is a major problem.
As an example Religious authorities in the middle-east outlawed the printing press for over 100 years after it was invented because they were afraid of the spead of western ideas - as a result literacy exploded in the West and remained a privledge of the elite in the middle-east - blame America all you want - but this was a huge mistake and it belongs to Muslims alone.
the Dictators in many of these countries control the media and feed their people a very biased news - religious incitement and dogma also creates alot of conflict.
whenever you have religious zealots preaching murder in the name of God - regardless of what the religion - there will be a problem.
So the difficulties in the middle-east are complex and have many intersecting roots - some is the fault of the West - most frankly is the fault of those living in the area.
Hopefully for all concerned the West and the residents can find a more positive dynamic moving forward.
- Luke
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caroline muntemba
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Re: reply
March 9, 2005 - 11:34 AM
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hi this is carole,
i have just been reading all your posts and a thought crossed my mind- the conflicts in the middle east and btwn usa and the middle east has been going on for so long that one actually forgets where,or why it all started.
i imagine the original wrong that was intended to be righted is long forgotten- and all there is is just a lot of other "by the ways" that now seem to be all important.
somebody refresh my memory and tell me why there still is so much conflict despite the fact the the initial threats wwere seemingly eliminated.
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calyx
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Re: reply
March 11, 2005 - 06:52 AM
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Dear luke and everybody else!
There are a lot of topics to discuss and will take a lot of time discussing each point but i have observed some point in these discussions as i think i should comment.
It is said that US has good freindship with some islamic countries such as Turkey,saudi,and some other.
I think US doesnt make freindship without any reason.
if saudi is his freind it is due to his petroleum energy and secondly,the government in USA,QATAR,SAUDI and other arab countries are puppets as in afghanistan and in iraq.
I personally thank US forces and g.w.bush to defeat taliban.
As i and the region here think that the taliban was also brought to afghanistan by US which was leaded by the neighoring country PAKISTAN.
It was an unbelievable pre-planning of US.they were orderd to preach islam like a devil.In the history of AFGHANISTAN there had never been such Isam as the taliban preached.It was totally US planning and some efforts of the neighboring countries.
Here also US has some benefits by invading afghanistan.Here in afghanistan he has base which lies in the center of asia.Now he is planning to attack which asian country first.His hands reach to all the asian countries to lead,to invade them,but question arises here that US could attack any country without invading afghanistan,but afghanistan is a country totally ruined,it makes no difference to US if it is bombarded or not but their country will be safe and sound which is out of reach of the Asian countris such as IRAN.
Luke dont want discuss US invasion of iraq due to the fact that it is not a religious invasion,however,he is discussing religious invasions.
yeah it isnt a religious war but a political and economical as US takes its petroleum energy and with this energy destroys other ISAMIC COUNTRIES such as IRAN.
and blames Saddam as a dictator.i m not with saddam but i want to mention US purposes.
Now iraqi government of US is also a puppet but the people are not.They are innocent and they have no mass destructive weapons.but,they suffer themselve to save their homeland by suicide bombing.
i dont think that they are terrorists it is their right to do so as they have nothing in their hand to fight against the invaders of their country.And the evidence is that the people are not with the government as they are MUSLIMS and they dont want to be leaded by a puppet govornment.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: reply
March 27, 2005 - 02:35 AM
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Dali - no I certainly do not want to see America as a colonial power in Iraq for 40 years - carolemiyoba asked what were the roots of conflict in the Middle-east, so I mentioned the English occupation.
I do not want to see America in Iraq any longer then it takes for Iraqi security forces to mature to the point that they can handle security in Iraq.
as for if the situation is better right now - I would ask the Iraqis on the website how they feel about it - their answers might surprise you -
but the real test will not be today - it will be in 5-10 years - if Iraq at that point is an autonomous democratic nation which is prospering - then yes, I think it will have been worth it - remember that American blood has been shed as well.
If the country is still in chaos and looks like it does now - then I would say it is a historic failure.
Now - Calyx - the Taliban were not empowered by the US - The US did empower radical Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 80's to fight the Russians - but by the early 90's America had found other interests.
Pakistan stayed involved of course because they are a neighbor - but in 1994 America and Pakistan were not such good friends as they are now.
As for America thinking about what other countries to invade from Afghanistan - Calyx - America does not have the troops in Afghanistan necissary even to patrol the whole of Afghanistan - there are only about 15000 American troops in Afghanistan - this is certainly not nearly enough to contemplate invasion.
And who would they invade? certainly not Pakistan, nor any of the northern neighbors and former Soviet countries - Russian and China would move against the US.
Iran - but even there invasion is out of the question - Iran is too big - airstrikes against suspected Nuclear facilities maybe - but America can launch aristrikes from aircraft carriers - they do not need to invade Afghanistan simply to make airstrikes in Iran possible.
The reason America invaded Afghanistan is rather simple - 9/11 - to deal with the terrorist organization which killed American civilians and make sure they do not do so again -
We have bases in Japan and South Korea, Kuwait, Qatar, Turkey - and aircraft carriers -
We don't need to fight a war just so we can "have another base" in Asia.
In fact when the invasion of Iraq was launched - did America use Afghansitan as a strategic launching site?
No - they used Kuwait, and aircraft carriers.
Basically this theory that America invaded Afghanistan for the sake of having more bases in Asia is not reality.
I saw 9/11 with my bare eyes - I am from New York - beleive me when I walked on the ashes of New York - there was no question in my mind that the Army was going to find the people responsible - where ever they might be - and deal with them. This is WHY we went into Afghanistan.
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