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Nedal Zahran

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War in Palestine
October 1, 2002 - 01:27 AM

Not_neo, I am not sure all you said is clear, at least not to me. Although it might seem that the war that is taking place in Palestine is just a fight over resources, I find it has deeper roots than just that. Did you ever have to fight to prove your history? This is a major issue in our war. The contemprory existence of a jewish community in the area has only started 124 years ago in 1878 the first Jewish settlement was built on Palestinian land. This was based on an ideology that claimed the ownership of the land on biblical rights. You can't fight a lot about religions but this biblical right stated in the bible is a promise made to Abraham "To thou and thy seed..." no matter how ironic this seems, Abraham is the ancestor of both Arabs and Jews.

However, the zionist ideology claims complete rights to all of historic Palestine, for jews only. This was helped by the rise of antisemitism in Europe. The equation that was raised to relief some of the guilt on part of the Europeans after the Holocaust, was support the idea of a jewish homeland in Palestine (this idea had it's roots originally in the Balfour declaration of 1917 By then British Foreign Minister) in return for that sin. Ofcourse, the west had nothing to lose of this comprimise. It supported the creation of an Israeli state, and a UN resolution was passed to devide the land between two people, Arab Palestinians who lived there for more than they can remember, and Jews whose short memory of the land is covered by "biblical rights". Both People didn't agree to the resolution (FACT) the Palestinian leadership rejected it and the Israelis remained silent. When the war erupted the Israelis gained control over more than what was specified in UN resolution. The west was silent about This. Israel occupied the rest of Palestine and parts of Syria, Lebanon and Egypt in 1967.

This is the story of the conflict, in facts. It is really not about resources as much as it is about existence, and self determination. These rights which Palestinians are denied are our aim. To live a decent life, on our land, and to be able to control our destiny. This is the jest of the conflict.

Gerald Derome

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Re: Middle-East
October 1, 2002 - 02:52 AM

Before man crowned himself king of all lands, all life shared in its wonders.
I did not say that this is the only reason why there is war there.
Wars reasons in many and most deepest comes down to control for the health, safety and prolongation of ones people.
Doctrines written by men (and women) like you and i are at some of the root causes of todays wars. He said, she said!
I say one mankind, from one origin, one mankind from now on for a common future.
I do not take for any of these two sides, i toot for Gaia, or mother earth.
In 2000 years from now someone may find the things that i or you have written and also call them scriptures.
Both sides claim injustices. I claim injustices coming from all religions and governments of taday!
No doctrine has yet so far made us more civil then the next. One is better one way the other in another. Lets pull out all the good from the past and present and make a new one. Over 200 countries/cultures/pasts/doctrines.
You sound like that 16 or so year old girl on T.V. the other day. "I KNOW THIS IS OUR LAND"...Who was talking?
A carbon copy image of her parents and leaders doctrines!
We, all the people of the planet, poor and rich, seek, long, to live a dignified honest life. The only way is together, not as master and slave, us and them and/or we and they.
I do not like any of the doctrines today because they do not see, ignore or do not admit, the harm they are doing collectively to the planet.
I declared and see myself as an earthling not as belonging to one country, religion or culture.
Mankind has always been a greedy selfish arrogant animal.
Humanity and salvation is for everyone. For the good of all life.

not_neo
nice hearing from you. it is fun hitting nerves! smile

Nedal Zahran

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Re: Middle-East
October 2, 2002 - 03:19 AM

well, Not_neo, I would love the world to be as you described. But when one person deviates from this utopia, he makes it harder for others to stay.
You may not understand or beleive this, but in the 1800's in Palestine there was no concept of ownership for land. Land would belong to the whole village, and the villagers would use it to plant their crops, and build their houses. So it was somewhat close to the concept you are talking about. However when the British occupied Palestine in 1917 they institutionalised and ownership system for land.
That's one thing.
And I don't think the feeling of belonging to a place is as childish as you described. I beleive in human ideals, I don't think I would ever kill a human, and I don't want to see killings taking place. For Palestinians to stop resistance they need to see the unjustices inflected on them undone, and want to make sure they wont be done again. exactly like the non-eusropeans of south africa wanted to see a new begening, and the jews wanted assurances for a safer life after the holocaust.
The war waged on Palestinians has an ethical dimension to it. This has to be tackeled and treated to undo the justices inflicted on us, and when these are resolved then the prospects for peace are real and true.

By the way, I don't take it presonally, I am smiling.

Murray J. Brown

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Re: Middle-East
October 2, 2002 - 05:08 AM

Good discussion. I, like not_neo, would like to be considered more a global citizen than one of a particular country (although I surely am proud to be Canadian! ;-). However, such transformations of a society take place very gradually and we cannot dismiss the cultural, historical, geographic and socio-economic conditions that shape the peoples of various nations for to do so would be to ignore the realities of the world.

Beyond this, I have little to say about the situation in Palestine except to recommend an excellent (reasonably unbiased, I think) book on subject by the renowned American historian and author Barbara Tuchman entitled "Bible and Sword: England and Palestine from the Bronze Age to Balfour," New York University Press, 1956, ISBN 0-345-31427-1.

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Gerald Derome

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Re: Middle-East
October 2, 2002 - 08:29 AM

"to undo the justices inflicted on us" i hope we do not mean revenge.
We would find in many if in all parts of the world injustices caused by another nation or people.
Before the Europeans came to North America, they too (natives) forgive me if not politicaly correct,lived, can i say differently! The history of black enslavement. The orient recorded wars of over 6000 years ago.
It may sound childish but i say we should band aid the whole world at once, for as long as the present class systems of the world today is accepted by both religious and governments groups, conflicts, revenge and wars will continue.
When do we, if ever, or say, lets start anew why not here now?
You like your enemy will say, not until we settle past injustices.
From where i sit and many others we know that any occupation is unjust. With the backing of the U.S. of A. the Isrealies are, through their eyes, "legaly" winning an/the economic war.
There is more suffering and death because of economic wars, weapons of choice, ownership & control, then all other military wars for they are also the cause of most of these.
Yes i agree it takes only one person to deviate from utopia. Somehow, "thou shall not (consciously) kill" are hard words to understand. To grow up as royalty while others elsewhere have ditto. "Our" economy is much too important!

Nedal Zahran

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revenge
October 3, 2002 - 01:44 AM

No, Not_neo, that's not what i ask for, truely "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". But how can any Palestinian feel he is part of a global community when he continuously being detained, tortured, punished and killed for what he is. This increases the sense of identity among Palestinians.
Undoing the injustices, is first of all ending the Israeli occupation. Then giving Palestinians their right to live in their home without fear or danger.
Not_neo, I can't go to university properly because it sometimes occures to an Israeli soldier to make life harder sooo he goes with his APC and blocks the road, stopping thousands of Palestinians from using it for no particular reason. Leaving my home is dangerous, Curfews are imposed on us for the most part of the week, breaching the curfew can kill you, i take this risk everyday because i have to go to my night time job at a Palestinian Newspaper. when I finish working I have to sleep at work!
This is only part of what is happening. can we ask the whole world to stand with an ethical resolution to this conflict? We share these human ideals with everyone else. But the way we see things is that the world shares these ideals all the time, but turns a blind eye when it comes to Palestine.
That's why I say WE, untill something changes, we are the Palestinian people.

Gerald Derome

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Re: Middle-East
October 3, 2002 - 10:14 AM

i am glad to see that revenge is the last thing on the agenda.
"Ending the occupation" does that mean getting back the lands from how far back?
No one can imagine that has never been a complete prisoner what it is like.
I have been trying to explain to people that all of mankind, every person, is a prisoner of one of the many evolved systems that he/she resides in.
You have heard the saying "where there are Jews there is news", well not only does a good portion (majority) of the news that goes out, that is made public, is controled by the same people who control a large portion of influential wealth in/of those countries involved, but they get to "screen" those things that work only to their advantage. The U.S., England and even here Canada. Their ties and links are strong.
If one asks the general public in these countries you would find that many do not agree with how things are now allowed to be done. Canada like many other countries are part of the problem but also can and must change to be part of the solution.
Would be nice to have an exchange of peoples for but a month. Put those people in charge (parliaments, house of comics,royalty, house of congress) along with their families from those three mentioned countries, in your houses and see how wide their scope or vision would expand and how fast.
I wish i could trade places with you. I am sorry that mankind is dealing these type of cards out to so many people. Greed comes from our animal side.
We the people of the planet, all in our own (or others)millipedic man made prisons. Collectively mankind is still more animal then the humanitarian he pretends to be.

not_neo.....do publish any of my writtings, if you can.

Nedal Zahran

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Re: Middle-East
October 5, 2002 - 02:42 AM

Not_neo, I do share your thoughts with friends. But, as wonderful and idealistic as they are I am afraid they are from from being taken seriously by the majority. Truely we all dwell in self-made prisons, even yourself by adopting these ideals you refuse to give chance to a more pragmatic thinking. The current social and political infrastructure is far from being destoryed. Both of us work against it (each from his side) hopefully one of us will succeed (and I don't mean one individual because we both represnt a group of people).
In Palestine, The PLO once (in 1974) made an offer which was rejected by the Israelis, and yet more, it was not publicised in the media as it should be since it was given from the plateform of the UN general assembly. The PLO then suggested a democratic secular binational state where each ethnic group would have democratic representation in the elected bodies of this state.
This, although on a smaller scale, is step one in resolving the conflict. I think it is the most ethical solution, but the Israeli government rejected it.
I wish the power could be given to the people to decide what they want. In Palestine 3.5 million Palestinians have NO political rights top decide on their future because the Israeli public is the one that decides on our destiny.
Ned

Nedal Zahran

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Re: Middle-East
October 5, 2002 - 08:09 AM

Not_neo, It is 2.00 am. I didn't notice how much my whole life was a hostage to somebodies desires until now. The Israeli Occupation Froces (IOF)have invaded our workplace. I work as a Graphic designer for a national newspaper. For about 3 months wee have been sleeping at work, because of the curfew imposed on the city. So we do our work, and after that we sleep here. Today, a group of soldiers came into the building, requested everyone to come together at the reception, and held us there for two hours. None of us was hurt, but the mere sense of insecurity we lived in the past two hours is horrible. The searched our offices as if we were criminals. They would force us not to speak, smoke or move.
The Problem is that this is a small story in comparison to what happens everyday.
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read this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,802778,00.html
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"... but the Israelis soon became aware of the importance of these (art) exhibitions and started hitting the League of Palestinian Artists. They made us get permits to show our work, censoring art and invading artists' studios. Several of us were imprisoned, usually on charges that they were painting in the colours of the Palestinian flag. They would say, 'You can paint, but don't use red, white or black,' and they would imprison you if you used those colours. You couldn't paint a poppy, for example, or a watermelon: they were the wrong colours. Often it was up to the artistic judgment of the particular officer in charge."
===================

Gerald Derome

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Re: Middle-East
October 6, 2002 - 12:20 PM

Thus is war, ugly.
I had written a long peice but lost it.
As long as the worlds inhabitants keep saying, us and they or we and them, and of course, as long as we have disparity of oportunity and the haves and have nots and the same bunch on top of all the old and new pyramids with their doctrines inshrined into their jacket pockets or robes, and insist in the freedom of the us(s) animal side to rule, war will live.

earthling not_neo

Mike

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Well
October 7, 2002 - 08:33 AM

Well the rhetoric in here is vague in parts but it all seems to share the same continual theme; that war provides endless, eternal suffering.

I was wondering this afternoon what it would be like if young people were the ones who co-ordinated diplomatic efforts. It would remove at least SOME of the political maneouvering that occurs.

Problem is, young people dont seem to get along with hard-liners, who always seem prominent in war-torn nations.

Damn.

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