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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 10, 2005 - 09:07 AM
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Oh - and as to "China and Russia leaving us to the touble we caused" - you mean the Chinese who just dragged the North Koreans back to the table for 6 party talks?
Or the Russians who are threatening to cut off oil - which one?
you see if North Korea gets Nukes - then I guess Japan and South Korea will have to have them was well so as to defend themselves -
this presents a much bigger problem for China and Russia - who are in the neighborhood, then it does for US who live across the Pacific Ocean.
Why do you think Russia and China are involved in the talks - as a favor to the US? Because China loves us right?
here is another picture of your freinds the North Koreans -
your right - I don't see anything to worry about - they look so peaceful!
And notice how they are all standing in these perfectly neat and orderly rows - I can't think of another Nazi, I mean, country that his reminds me of.
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Ben
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 10, 2005 - 11:17 AM
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Luke, they stand in straight lines like nazis!?! mate look at any army on display, even american armies, they all march in time and in straight lines when on display - that deosnt mean you are nazis right?
There is a differnece between opponents attempting to knock you off teh top of the hill compared to the top of the hill actively going after possible threats. North korea are a threat according to you anf that you should go in there and eliminate the threat - so by your logic before they can launch an attack you go in and wipe them out? wouldnt that provoke an attack? chicken and the egg, we attack then they will launch, we dont attack they could launch - it doesnt matter which way you go - accoridng to your logic america will get fried. the nazis for no reason attacked the european area, poland england etc. they were not enemies with anyone - so does that mean that every country with nuclear weapons should be disarmed? as they could one day pose a threat? sure north korea these days are a threat but let sleeping dogs lie my friend. provoke them and they will attack, dont provoke them and they might not. i'd rather a chance of no attack than a guarnteed retalition.
I totally agree with disarming north korea, i totally agree with disarming the world from nuclear and other biological/chemical weapons, and i will happily support a disarming program for north korea (and america for that matter - and all the other nuclear armed countries) but going in guns blazing is the worst possible way. Iraq for example the only reason that worked is because america knew there was nothing there, it was a ploy to link iraq to osama and his followers just so america could go in and attempt to put ina friendly government. the link between the two was tedious at best so they concocted reports stating WMD were present - which they weren't.
with north korea going in guns blazing when teh world knows teh have a massive army and a formidable arsenal and their leader is quite the lunatic so he would be more likely to use his power. at the moment there is an uneasy balance that will be poorly upset of america or any country goes in shooting and screaming.
let sleeping dogs lie, allow china and russia to see what they can do - if all else fails get the UN in there or put trade sanctions on the country - isolate them from the world but whatever you do dont support an ivnasion force, justified or not that will provoke an attack.
any info on a forigen country can be used to promote fear and angst amongst a population - so do not take these pics at face value as i could easily find as many or more situatiosn detailing worse scenarios involving american lead forces.
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SLOVENC
连接： Nov 25, 2003
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 02:48 AM
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Luke if there is a thing you have no right talking about is about the nazi germany and how we only watched!!! tell me what could we do? just tell me??????? all the neighbouring countries attacked us ALL OF THEM!!!! even our yugoslav neighbour croatia who still is a nazi country! and what i hate is that slovenes were so stupid that they actually rejoined yugoslavia and didn't go our own way, this way would be beneficial for us and we'd be one of the top 4 most developed countries (along EU,Japan and Switzerland). the thing is my nation is so small we can't even defend ourselves, and if we do?? so what we can't do much! i mean just look at our neighbours with their huge armies! slovenia did join the NATO cos of that reason (whish i personally hate) and sent it's troops to afghanistan! BUT LUKE these are peace troops,we NEVER NEVER attacked anyone like u do! war is not the anwser!! luke if there is someone personally attacking anyone it's you attacking me! and in a very brutal way, i tell you the terrorists will crush your country down and beat you as you're such a danger and threat to the world! and you are making the osps angry you will regret this you will see!just do not look for danger& agression there where you're not getting any! this is NOT self defence or help as you think! this is simply a war for natural resources! nothing else! and stop attacking people. i hope the people you attack won't keep quiet but will report you and crush you down!just stop your arrogant way of thinking as you will regret it once you will see trust me!and do never talk about the nazi stuff like you do, you simply have no imagination how it really was, you're not european nor have you lived here ! so stop this as it's a really delicate thing to talk about and you can't tell such crap as you do!you basicly just joke around nazism, when you should not, and the nazis are geting more power, in fact, one of them is in one local government in germany! and personally i dislike this! if this will go on, germany and the US will together try to crash down the world!
AND STOP TALKING AS ALL THE NUKE COUNTRIES ARE TERRORISTIC! THEY WILL HAVE ENOUGH ONE DAY!!! DO NOT PROVOKE THOSE WHO ARE BETTER THAN YOU!
peace
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Ajay Kamalakaran
连接： Oct 19, 2004
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Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 03:27 AM
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Luke
America has left Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan off the hook despite the fact that he has even admitted to transfering nuclear technology to Iran, Libya and North Korea. In fact, Pakistan which has WMDs is a "front-line ally" of the US in the War on Terror.
Who gives America the right to decide which nuclear armed nation is a rogue state and which isn't?
America is as much a threat to world peace as North Korea.
PS. Any luck on those WMDs in Iraq?
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 04:39 AM
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Most of My Grandfather's family died in Dachau - his brothers, his parents -
I am a Jew whose ancestors died in the Hollocaust - I beleive I have just as much right to talk about Nazi Germany as you my friend.
There were countries that could have stood up to Hitler before he aquired all the rescources and slave labor he needed to attempt world domination.
When they saw the country that started WW1 - amassing an army and bristling with an arsinal - they could have stopped it before it grew to full maturity and saved ALOT of LIVES.
The Korean war happened because North Korea decided to invade South Korea - now we are watching North Korea amass an army and bristling with an arsinal.
I understand you guys don't like Bush - but he is simply not Hitler - or Kim Jung Il.
You can tell alot about a leader by how they treat their own people - if you have a nonconformist political opinion in North Korea you get shot -
I can walk outside my house and say whatever I want -
This is not propoganda - this is the fact - they have rather strict authoratarian rule in NK -
Gambit you sit there and argue it looks like a "normal military demonstraition"
They are marching ballistic missles through their capital with millions of people salluting in unison - what are you daft man? You think this is "normal"?
do they do this in Australia? - do you guys have such "normal military demonstraitions" in Sydney? - we sure don't - I can't remmeber this ever happening in Washington.
Looks alot more like Berlin.
And look Matic - I understand that your country could not deal with the Nazis - but my point is that there were countries like England, and Russia and the United States who could have done something about it and didn't and waited until the problem had grown to total crisis.
you want to know why America has to get involved and check and isolate charaters like Kim Jung Il - because we can -
Remember that it was an American President who stood before the Berlin Wall and said "Tear down this wall!" - and alot of Europeans didn't like him - didn't like America's aggressive posture with Soviets - thought Regan was stirring up trouble
- he was a conservative American President - but Regan was right - he was right to stand up to the Iron Curtain and push it back.
Y'know I had an Iranian freind visit tonight - Afsaneh - she lives in Santa Monica now - you know why - because her family wanted to be free - the women wanted to be able to show their face in public - they were "political subversives" - they are in the United States as Political Refugees.
You talk to Afsaneh about the idea of the Iranian government getting nuclear weapons - she understands what that means - far more then you do.
In the end you two don't seem to reolize that this "progressive" ideology you are preaching - your just preaching it, you don't beleive it
- facist dictators like Kim Jung Il - are about as far from "peaceful and free" as anyone - if you want world peace then I think Regeimes like Kim Jung Il's are precisely the problem - and the idea that he is aquiring larger tools of war only increases the danger and decreases the likelihood of peace.
Anyway Matic - I am not really sure why you are getting so upset - you started insulting me - and now the discussion is not going the way you want so your going to go cry to the moderators?
grow up.
You are talking to me about paniking - but I'm completely calm - I think you need to relax.
You "laughed" at me because I think it is a problem that a desperate facist dictator with ties to terrorism has aquired the most destructive weapon in the world -
I think that's called common sense.
but instead of trying to explain why it is ok for Kim Jung Il to have these weapons - which is ostensibly your arguement -
you have just sort of called me names - and basically told me that you don't like Bush - which is poor substitute for actual critical thought.
Gambit - bro - do I see NK as a threat - yeah, its a problem -
do I think we need to start a war - no - I think if the situation with Korea ever came to violence it would be a disaster - Mostly for the North Koreans, but also US, the Japanese, the South Koreans especially, the Chinese...
Alot of people would die.
I think the North Koreans need to be montored closely, checked and contained -
- I think we need human intelligence on what they are doing - and we need to know as much about the movements of their Nuclear materials and delivery systems as possible.
Basiacally I DO NOT think the United states should strike first with North Korea - that is a bull in a China shop- but rather the US and its regoinal allies should be poised to counter any aggressive move made by NK.
In the meantime there are alot of other tools we can use to apply pressure on NK to stop arming - economic, political - hell if we really want to can override their media signal and replace it with our own.
The Chinese have enormous leverage over North Korea - with out China NK wouldn't even have electricity - China is using this in its posturing with the United States.
The ones who will probably lose out are the Tiawanese -
Japan and the US would like to help Tiawan achieve independance - but they need China to put pressure on NK. This may trump helping Tiawan.
What you boys need to wake up and reolize is that a SELF AGGRANDIZING - MEGLOMANIACAL FACIST DICTATORS - THE KIND OF MAN WHO MAKES HIS BIRTHDAY THE BIGGEST HOLIDAY IN THE COUNTRY - getting NUCLEAR WEAPONS -
- is not just a problem, it is a SERIOUS PROBLEM -
How we deal with that problem is another question all together - do we need to start a major war - the scale of which would dwarf the Iraqi conflict -
- I don't think that is wise - but what is wise is to recognise the danger and use every other tool at your disposal to contain and counter the danger.
finally - as to this being a war for natural rescources - Matic are you really that simple - you think something this complex can be "summed up" like that?
What exactly are North Koreas natural rescources - can you tell me?
Please Matic tell me about North Koreas valuable natural rescources -
Your talking to me as though you have this all figured out - and your all right and I'm all wrong - but you obviously have not thought through your arguements at all.
Alot of this simply has to do with watching Japan and South Koreas back -
After WW2 we rebuilt Japan - that is why we are concerned.
WE lost 50,000 American Sons keeping the North Koreans out of South Korea -
My Martial Arts Grandmaster is South Korean - he fought against the North during the 50's -
- you talk to him some time about the 'peaceful intentions of North Korea"
You laugh at this 75 year old Master when he tells you what happened in that war - ask him how he feels about the North getting having Nuclear weapons armed on Ballistic missles aimed at land he fought to protect.
I would really like to see you do this -
- I am not attacking you - I am attacing the inane and poorly thought out positions you are taking -
you are attacking me - and not even trying to address the subject of the thread - namely North Korea with Nukes.
When you actually offer up some intelligent observations on the subject - beyond Bush bashing and being upset with me because YOU can't maintain a coherent arguement -
I think you will find I am open to learning from those who have something to teach me.
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Udara
连接： Dec 10, 2003
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 04:49 AM
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Luke, Can you address the issue raised by Ajay ?
Great seeing all you guys in TIG!
Udara
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 04:50 AM
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ajay78 - this is a fine question - why did the US let Kahn off the hook?
I understand that Pakistan is your enemy -
the answer is not hard to figure out.
Who knows more about radical Islamic organizations in places like Afhganistan and the flow of illegal weapons than the Pakinstanis?
therefore who can be more helpful in the destruction of these Radical Islamic organizations and and provide more information about the movement of illegal weapons than Pakistan?
ajay - are you saying that America should have invaded Pakistan?
Don't you think that it is a better idea to avoid such bloodshed if it is possible to turn a powerful potential adversary into a powerful ally?
Musharrif is not Kim Jung IL.
As a great Roman Senator once said "politics is a practical profession."
That said - this is really more a reason to let Musharrif off the hook than A.Q. Kahn -
and if you ask me I think the IAEA should be able to question Kahn directly instead of having to submit inquiries through the United Nations - absolutely.
Frankly I think Kahn should be in prison - but Pakistan is a valuable ally - were the Radical religous elements in Pakistan to gain power, and assume Pakistan's nuclear arsinal - it would be a big problem for the US.
So Bush does not want to create domestic political problems for Musharrif by arresting a national hero.
But yeah - sometimes Bush backs down when he probably shouldn't -
personally my bigggest dissappointment recently with Bush wasn't Pakistan - but Russia.
Bush keeps preaching democracy and freedom - Putin is busily rolling back decades of democratic reform - censoring the press, appointing governers, grant himself all kind of simi-permanent emergency powers -
and when Bush meets with Putin he seems to forget his courage - this was a dissappointment.
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Ajay Kamalakaran
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 05:37 AM
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Luke
Pakistan is by no means my enemy and I don't want bloodhsed there.
Iraqi lives are as precious as Pakistani or American lives. Why the bloodshed in Iraq?
I don't want Uncle Sam bombing Pakistan or anyone for that matter. I am glad that you agree America isn't doing anything about Khan.
But Bush talks about eliminating terrorism and establishing democracies-- Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are NOT democracies and have played a big part in funding terrorism, the same terrorism directed at America. How can Bush talk about eliminating terrorists and removing dictators and leave the establishments of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan alone?
You still haven't answered my question about WMDs in Iraq? More than 1200 American soldiers have died there and not a single hint of a WMD has been discovered? Do you or don't you agree that America's illegal war and occupation of Iraq is unjustified?
North Korea and Kim haven't invaded any other countries since the Korean War. Can we say the same about America?
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Ajay Kamalakaran
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 09:43 AM
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First and foremost Luke,
America has no right to invade any country. You might assume that it is America's God-given right, but there is no justification in America's interference in other sovereign states.
You are a Democrat.....
You should read Bill Clinton's autobiography. Since you spoke of the bombing of Yugoslavia, read what he says of his bombing of Yugoslavia. He says that reports about Milosevic were exaggerated and that bombing Yugoslavia was the only regret he had in 8 years.
Pakistan....
Musharraf has been talking about democracy for years but he has been violating the country's constitution by keeping the President's Post (which he illegally grabbed) and the General's Uniform. Read the Pakistani newspaper Dawn and articles by columnist Ayaz Amir to see what kind of a democarcy the country has. In Musharraf, you have a dictator armed with WMD. The fact is that if he annoys Uncle Sam in teh near future, he knows he could be next on the US bombing list.
North Korea....
North Korea feels their independence as threatened as the South does. It's indirect backing by Moscow and Beijing that has prevented an American-led invasion of the North from South Korea.
And about America upholding democratic values globally, there are innumerous instances when democratic regimes have been overthrown by US-backed and sponsored coups. Do you know about Chile's democraticaly-elected Allende? About how a General Pinochet overthrew him with American backing. I assure you that Pinochet was responsible for as many deaths as Saddam Hussein, yet he remained a staunch American ally.
Politics is a game and you have made your point. Please remember that America is not the paragon of virtue and righteousness.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 11:11 AM
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Ajay - I've just heard all this before - on this sight - its like you guys are reading from the same script.
What about Chilie, Pinnochet - that was tragic situation created by the US. And why not point out Vietnam - that was a situation the US was far more involved in than Cambodia.
- and if you consider the Indians "foriegn Policy" - then what was done there was really the most blood on America's hands.
But the bit about South Korea threaten to invade the north - gimme a break.
Neither South Korea nor Japan has nearly the robust army that North Korea has - it has over 1 million people working in its Military industry - think about that.
That is a significant portion of the society.
The United States has roughly that many working in its armed services - and we have 300 million populace.
this idea that the North is threatened by invasion - when they have China standing behind them - is sort of a joke.
The United States just re-alligned its troops out of places like Germany, Japan, and South Korea and rotated them into Iraq.
The US just basically took 50,000 soldiers off the DMZ - do they look like they are going to invade - it they are rotating thousands of troops out of the area?
As far as "influencing other countries" - bro - we signed a Treaty with Japan after WW2 - We have committed to defending Japan - as they have committed to limiting their army.
so we do not have a choice in the matter - we cannot dishonor a treaty with the Japanese.
But - if you would stop to think and notice - America has done some pretty amazing things as well -
they have driven the Nazis out of Europe and been decisive in vanquishing Germany.
they stood up to Hitler.
they stood up to Stalin.
more recently they created elections in Afghanistan. A few years before Taliban would kill women in football stadium for being out without male escort.
It is sort of amazing to me that you cannot appreciate this change
The idea that people with out violence or guns can express political power - in a coutnry like Afghanistan - where the warlords have always ruled... I know there are still warlords - but their day is wanning.
The United States cannot choose Iraq's destiny - this is not possible - because it is Iraq's alone to choose - it is their destiny - no other can truly choose it.
basically thats all I want them to do - I want Iraqis to set up a functioning government with an Iraqi security force which is capable of protecting the citizenry and enforcing the governments Laws -
Ultimately it is for the Iraqis - and no other to decide when and how to ask America to leave
- you will notice NONE of the major Iraqi candidates - not Allawi - and NOT Sistani or the Shia candidate - Ibrahim al-Jaafari - wants America to leave until Constitution is established.
Ajay - you need to talk to some Iraqis - period - then come back and talk to me
I imagine once they have chosen a President and drafted a Constitution - they will have the forces they need.
I expect that America will maintain a robust Embassey -
I think the Iraqis will objet to any permanent bases for the US in Iraq beyond that Embassey.
you talk about Iraqi having died because of the US - Saddam killed 500,000 Iraqi in the last 15 years - have you seen the mass graves - he was dropping chemicals on the Kurds.
right now there is no question that the insurgency is killing more Iraqis than America - by far.
insurgents are driving car bombs into Mosques and police stations, and Iraqi army recuite lines -
into Shia religious ceremonies.
Watch - America will stay focused - and so will Iraqis - and slowly the Iraqis will get VERY tired of insurgency killing so many Iraqis -
again - I think you need to talk to Hammodi - how many Iraqis do you know - I know about 6.
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Ajay Kamalakaran
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 11:33 AM
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Luke
I do appreciate the good things America has done like the rebuilding of Japan and Germany. Yes, they did rid Afghanistan of the Taliban, but the Taliban were created by the US and their ally Pakistan.
I was raised in New York City and I do not hate America.
You have clearly demonstrated how much bloodshed America has caused in addition to the good work. The fact is that there are several things that the country can be proud of as well as ashamed of. America has done more than its fair share of harm to the world.
As for defeating Nazism, it was because of the USSR that Hitler was defeated. I know for a fact that the role of the Soviet Union in defeating Nazi Germany has been belittled in American history text books.
As for North Korea,
They were protected from a Southern (read-American) Invasion because of their closeness to their giant communist neighbours in the north. South Korea does not recognise the north as a seperate country and would like nothing more than take over the north and form a United Korea.
As for moving troops out of the region, it was Donald Rumsfeld who boldly declared that America can simultaneoulsy fight a war in Iraq and North Korea.
And on Saddam,
He's not Mother Teresa but the figures you quote are manufactured by America with the help of Saddam's Kurdish enemies. America none the less has more blood on its hands than Saddam.
I have spoken to plenty of Iraqis, the ones who didn't seek assylum and a better life in the US. They resent what America has done to their country.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 11, 2005 - 12:52 PM
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Ajay - do you know WHY North Korea has not invaded any countries since the Korean war?
its called the American armed forces keeping him contained -
do you think Kim Jung Il has been contained because he decided "war is wrong"
do you think his failure to invade South Korea again is because he doesn't want to?
He can't take on China or Russia - so the only countries Kim is acapable of attacking are Japan and South Korea -
The reason he does not try to invade South Korea is because America has 135,000 along the DMZ - PREVENTING an invasion from the north.
But thank you for pointing this out and proving my point.
Now this isn't really about Iraq - if you want to know my position -
I know Iraqi exile families who fled the country in the middle of the night to escape Saddam - one father had to leave behind 2 of his daughters.
So if you are asking me if I shed a tear to see Saddam fall - the answer is no.
But I have been against the war because I don't like the way it was executed -
- personally I think when Saddam invaded Kuwait in 91' - we should have taken him out of power.
but rather then assuming that you know everything why not talk to TIG's resident Iraqi member Hammodi -
here is a link to his discussion of the elections in Iraq - read it - it might open your eyes.
http://www.takingitglobal.org/discuss/showthread.html?s=&threadid=10300
as for the WMD - bro I'm a Democrat - not a Republican - I am very upset with the administraition for misleading the nation into war and manipulating the American people with fear.
but that said - I think there was plenty of cause to remove Saddam even without the weapons - we went into Bosnia simply because Milosovich was genociding Muslims - he didn't have any weapons.
Finnally - as to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - in terms of Saudi Arabia your not going to get any arguement from me - I think their government is a real problem - I think their educational system is a huge problem - it is brainwashing young with radical religious ideology -
I would like to see the US be much stiffer with the Saudis.
But your point is basically unfair - it assumes that the US has perfect control over the world and we can just choose who is in charge of these countries - instead of having to deal with the cards we are dealt.
While you are on the subject Egypt and Jordan aren't democracies either - what do you expect us to do about it?
all we can do is push for democratic reform - we got Mubarric to agree to direct presidential elections - he doesn't have any compitition but it is a start
- we are not going to invade every country that isn't democratic - that just stupid.
So basically I think you have unreasonable expectations - since we are not going to invade Pakistan - nor should we - and we need their help dealing with organizations like Al Qaeda - it looks like we are going to have to work with the guy who happens to be in charge of Pakistan - namely Musharriff.
we can urge him toward moderation and democratic reform - but that is about it.
And I don't think it is unlikely that you will see elections in Pakistan some time soon - Musharrif is talking about it - look at that, the prospect of democracy in Pakistan and not a single shot fired.
like a said before - "politics is a practical profession."
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 12, 2005 - 01:33 AM
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Ajay - homeboy give me a break - I think the English had just as much to do with the defeat of Germany as the Russians
there is NO question that the descision to invade Russia was one of the worst mistakes Hitler made.
for one thing he had a non-aggression treaty with Stalin and could have kept Russia out of the war all togther -
and secondly when he attacked Russia his supply lines were streached thin and German troops were not prepared for the freezing Russian winters - and this was a large problem - not to mention the fact that Russia was an emerging Superpower.
But there is really no question that America turned the tide in WW2 -
Germany was handling both England and Russia for over 2 years before America got involved.
Russia was losing territory to the Germans - not gaining it.
And the idea that 80% - (which is the real number) of Germany casualties came on the eastern front A had something to do with the weather - and B had something to do with the fact that Russia was at war with Germany for 4 1/2 years and America was at war with Germany for abour 2 years.
But there is no serious question that the turning of the Tide began with D-Day and the storming of Normandy - from there the Germans were pushed out of France and the Allies marched across northern Europe into Germany.
The idea that the Allies would attepmt such a risky and COSTLY endeavor such as D-Day when the war is "already won" is laughable - and sounds like a Historian is corrupting pure anylisis with his own personal opinion.
Why would the Untied States be willing to sacrifice over 50,000 soliders - IN ONE DAY - if they thought the war was "already won"? - that is as many soldiers as were lost in the entire Vietnam war.
So please - you answer this question - why would America sacrifice 50,000 Sons to liberate Northern France - if the War was "already won"?
As with any major historical event there are differences of opinon - and scholars who will argue that Russia was cheifly responsible - or the US - or even French Resistance.
But D-day was when the Germans started losing territory - hell America won Northern France before the Russians even won out in St. Petersberg - which in northern Russia.
Once America entered the War Germany was defeated in 18 months - it broke the Germans back because they already had their hands full with England and Russia.
And America was taking on Germany's main ally Japan singlehandedly at the same time.
The English also deserve some credit while we are passing it around - the English were the ones who had to deal with Hitler's Navy and Submarines - and his airforce.
I think this historian sums it up nicely - http://www.mgtrust.org/ww2.htm
"In 1941 things went well for the Axis. The dark mood was capped at the end of the year when the Japanese announced war against the United States by bombing their fleet at its Pearl Harbor anchorage in Hawaii. In the end that proved a fatal mistake - as did the invasion of Russia which Hitler had launched in June 1941. On this Eastern Front the Russians engaged the invaders in a series of desperate battles during which the death toll far outstripped any of the First World War’s worst encounters; while in the Pacific the Americans joined the Allies in bloody island-by-island fighting against the Japanese during the ensuing four years.
The Germans were beaten in North Africa in 1942 at the Battle of El Alamein, and the following year saw the Allies land in Italy and commence a long slog up that peninsula. Italy gave up, but the Germans fought on - even after the massive Allied landings on the beaches of Normandy on D-Day, 6 June, which preceded their victorious advance through northern Europe towards Germany. By that time the long-drawn-out Battle of the Atlantic (German U-boat submarines against the supply ships of the Allied merchant navies) had turned decisively the Allies’ way, and many German cities had been flattened by RAF and USAF bombing planes - German civilians, like British ones, finding themselves as vulnerable to sudden death as the fighting men on the front line."
As for the Taliban - I have been over this with Udara - The United States had basically left Afghanistan well before the Taliban took over -
this idea that the Taliban was working for the US is silly - in fact Bin Laden did work for the US at one point against the Russians -
- the Taliban were a student lead religious revolution, the United States did not "create" them. The US didn't have any real control over either Afghanistan or Pakistan since around 90'
As for South Korea "invading" North Korea - honestly - you seem like a smart kid - except when you say things like this.
it is easy to "say" that but its just rediculous - please tell me of when the South has EVER attempted ANY such action.
please don't just say this - back it up with facts - show me an occasion when the South has attempted to invade the North - show me a South Korean President calling for the invasion of the North.
As for them not seeing the North as a seperate country - do you understand how the Korean war began?
The South declared independance and the North then invaded the South in an attepmt to retake it.
do you know how many American troops were stationed on the Korean penninsula at that point - before the North Korean invasion? Zero.
How was America going to invade North Korea with Zero troops?
When South Korea broke from the Communist North and decleared their intention of being a democratic, capitalist country - US supported them.
you really don't know what you are talking about on this point.
if the US wanted to invade North Korea - then why was it that the US only helped the South Koreans push the North back to the DMZ - and did not try to continue the push to the North's capital?
Finally - as for the figures I quote on Saddam - you are just evading the point - the point is that Saddam was slaughtering Iraqis before the US got there - whether the number is 500,000 or 300,000 is really immaterial -
to say "Saddam wasn't Mother Terressa" is just glossing over his crimes and ignoring the truth of the matter because it doesn't suite your arguement.
these picture speaks for itself - were they "fabricated" by the US and its Kurdish allies - or do you accept that these mass graves are the work of Saddam?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 12, 2005 - 01:34 AM
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here
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
邮件 156
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喋喋不休
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性别和年龄： 男性, 30
国家：United States
Province/State: California
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 12, 2005 - 01:38 AM
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this is from the Massacre of Basra in 1999 - you right "Saddam is no Mother Terressa" - that is one way to put it -
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