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Ben
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Proliferation of WMDs
February 10, 2005 - 09:31 AM
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Korea now admit they have nuclear weapon capabilities, (despite it being assumed for a while now) does this really matter - they say its for their own defense, so i put this question to anyone reading this thread,
does it matter that korea have nuclear weapons? if iraq actually had weapons of mass descrution and openly admitted it, would that have stopped bush from invading?
alone similar lines would it matter if every country had nuclear weapons? if each country new each other country had WMD would that not stop invasions, knowing that the enemy could launch?
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SLOVENC
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
February 11, 2005 - 10:28 AM
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i think that as long as the US have WMD it basicly doesn't matter if any other country have them! cos if one country has them, all the others may have them too if they want!
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Brian
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
February 11, 2005 - 12:54 PM
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Good point matic. Has the US even dismantled any nukes lately?
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Brian
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
February 17, 2005 - 01:09 AM
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Originally posted by luke
sigh - you guys are really incredible - Kim Jong Il gets Nuclear weapons and you wonder if it matters -
Well lets see, he is an unstable dictator whose people have resorted to eating tree bark in some places.
They are a poor and desperate nation who already have a track record for selling weapons to well - who-ever wants them, Lybia, terrorist organizations - illegal weapons are North Koreas biggest export - can you even name another?
Considering their proximity to Australia I thought you would exhibit a little common sense.
And because a country as generally hostile, billigerant, and desperate as North Korea has the bomb - it will kick off an Asian arms race - It is likely that the South Koreans and the Japanese will develop weapons, as will alot of the South East Asain countires -
You see these countries understand something that you don't - North Korea is very very dangerous - they have a facist military culture - and it is foolish not to develop WMD if the local psycho has them.
Now maybe you think it is "No big Deal" if North Korea sells Nuclear technology to groups like Al Qaeda - and sparks a major arms race in the most heavily populated regoin in the world -
- but to my mind this has disasterous implications - the likelhood of nuclear hollocaust has just been brought a step closer.
Don't you think it is instructive that not just the US - but also China, Japan, Russia and the South Koreans - are all opposed to a nuclear armed North Korea -
You think this is just because America says so - or do you think these nations are looking after their own interests - because they all recognise the danger of a nuclear North Korea.
As for Israel - You know the US doesn't really care that France, Germany, and England have Nukes either - nor really India or Pakistan - is this a double standard?
They are not crazy and desperate like the North Koreans.
I think every nation on earth has different policy regarding freindly nations and hostile ones - that is just common sense. We are not concerned that Israel will be firing Nuclear missles at either us or our allies - we are certainly not concerned that they would supply nuclear secrets to terrorist organizations - they would be the last to do so.
In fact considering the fact that Israel has been invaded 3 times - and twice since they had WMD - in the seventies Egyptian forces were 20 miles from Tel Aviv - and the Israeli still did not resort to their nuclear arsinal - that sys something aout the circumstances under which Israel would be willing to deploy the bomb.
Think for second - about if you would have a different policy regarding your friend having a weapon - and someone who wants to kill you.
Honestly - think just a little, it is really not that hard.
Any Brian - yes the US has dismantled Nukes lately - they have to because of the disarmament treaty with Russia - both sides have to reduce their arsinal by I think about 50%
Thanks Luke. I hadn't heard about any disarmament in the news lately.
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SLOVENC
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
February 17, 2005 - 09:30 AM
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you know what's iritating me???
that the US has nothing against Israels WMD!
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Brian
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
February 17, 2005 - 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by matic
you know what's iritating me???
that the US has nothing against Israels WMD! Nice double standard, huh? I think ideally all countries need to dismantle their nukes...but something tells me in ain't gonna happen.
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Ben
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
February 17, 2005 - 11:08 AM
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I personally do not think that North Korea having nuclear bombs is a major threat, for one basic reason - knowing that your enemy has nuclear weapons, you are less likely to use force on them under any circumstance.
If north korea launch then they know they will have the bulk of the world invading their country the next day, if it does start an arms race in asia it will still boil down to knwoing who has what.
I think north korea came out and said they had nucelar technology as a statement. George bush has in recent years grouped North korea as the "axis of evil" personally, if i had a super power like america calssing me as an emery i would arm myself, not for attacking but by arming themsevles america or any country will think twice before attacking or invading.
Yes it is a minor threat having a government like north korea to have nuclear weapons - or any government for that matter, but we can not do to them like what we did to iraq cos north korea will launch - it is i believe like a chess match. At this point both sides have a chance of winning and defeating teh enemy, but will the cost be too great? will losing so much be worth the final win, i doubt north korea will simply launch WMD now that they have them, i think they wanted to achieve a more distinct threat of retaliation.
as with israel, or any country that has nuclear weapons, if you knew your enemy had the ability to completely wipe you out, would that not stop you attacking them? with the threat of reply in such a drastic manner. we could invade and stop the nucelar program but that will guarntee them launching, where as letting them go - there is a chance they will never launch, and personally i would rather take the option that gives me a chance of avoid a nuke attack.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
February 17, 2005 - 12:13 PM
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sigh - you guys are really incredible - Kim Jong Il gets Nuclear weapons and you wonder if it matters -
Well lets see, he is an unstable dictator whose people have resorted to eating tree bark in some places.
They are a poor and desperate nation who already have a track record for selling weapons to well - who-ever wants them, Lybia, terrorist organizations - illegal weapons are North Koreas biggest export - can you even name another?
Considering their proximity to Australia I thought you would exhibit a little common sense.
And because a country as generally hostile, billigerant, and desperate as North Korea has the bomb - it will kick off an Asian arms race - It is likely that the South Koreans and the Japanese will develop weapons, as will alot of the South East Asain countires -
You see these countries understand something that you don't - North Korea is very very dangerous - they have a facist military culture - and it is foolish not to develop WMD if the local psycho has them.
Now maybe you think it is "No big Deal" if North Korea sells Nuclear technology to groups like Al Qaeda - and sparks a major arms race in the most heavily populated regoin in the world -
- but to my mind this has disasterous implications - the likelhood of nuclear hollocaust has just been brought a step closer.
Don't you think it is instructive that not just the US - but also China, Japan, Russia and the South Koreans - are all opposed to a nuclear armed North Korea -
You think this is just because America says so - or do you think these nations are looking after their own interests - because they all recognise the danger of a nuclear North Korea.
As for Israel - You know the US doesn't really care that France, Germany, and England have Nukes either - nor really India or Pakistan - is this a double standard?
They are not crazy and desperate like the North Koreans.
I think every nation on earth has different policy regarding freindly nations and hostile ones - that is just common sense. We are not concerned that Israel will be firing Nuclear missles at either us or our allies - we are certainly not concerned that they would supply nuclear secrets to terrorist organizations - they would be the last to do so.
In fact considering the fact that Israel has been invaded 3 times - and twice since they had WMD - in the seventies Egyptian forces were 20 miles from Tel Aviv - and the Israeli still did not resort to their nuclear arsinal - that sys something aout the circumstances under which Israel would be willing to deploy the bomb.
Think for second - about if you would have a different policy regarding your friend having a weapon - and someone who wants to kill you.
Honestly - think just a little, it is really not that hard.
Any Brian - yes the US has dismantled Nukes lately - they have to because of the disarmament treaty with Russia - both sides have to reduce their arsinal by I think about 50%
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
February 19, 2005 - 08:39 AM
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again - you are not listening - North Korea is destitute and desperate - desperate countries are more likely to try to profit off of nuclear technologies by selling them -
Countries from Lybia, to Syria, to Iran, to Yemen have all purchased ballistic missle technology from North Korea -
now this nation has nuclear technology - which is very valuable - and they will be selling it to the highest bidder - whomever that might be.
sure if NK used nukes it would kick off a major war - and in the end, after a few hundred thousand deaths they would be defeted -
but they could also sell the tech - and the plutonium, to a terrorist organization who would have no problem using WMD because they have no country against which you could seek retrobution.
regardless I would not want to be living in Seol right now - and if you haven't noticed the South Korea is more than a little concerned - maybe that is because NK has already tried to invade them without provication in the past.
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SLOVENC
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 10, 2005 - 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by luke
again - you are not listening - North Korea is destitute and desperate - desperate countries are more likely to try to profit off of nuclear technologies by selling them -
Countries from Lybia, to Syria, to Iran, to Yemen have all purchased ballistic missle technology from North Korea -
now this nation has nuclear technology - which is very valuable - and they will be selling it to the highest bidder - whomever that might be.
sure if NK used nukes it would kick off a major war - and in the end, after a few hundred thousand deaths they would be defeted -
but they could also sell the tech - and the plutonium, to a terrorist organization who would have no problem using WMD because they have no country against which you could seek retrobution.
regardless I would not want to be living in Seol right now - and if you haven't noticed the South Korea is more than a little concerned - maybe that is because NK has already tried to invade them without provication in the past.
luke you are hilarious! i can only laugh really! this is sooo funny and meaningless what you're saying! basicly all the countries you mentioned could say that for the US, so PLEASE stop this stupid quitch quatch!
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Moustafa Mohamed Hussein
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 10, 2005 - 03:16 AM
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Originally posted by luke
In fact considering the fact that Israel has been invaded 3 times - and twice since they had WMD - in the seventies Egyptian forces were 20 miles from Tel Aviv - and the Israeli still did not resort to their nuclear arsinal - that sys something aout the circumstances under which Israel would be willing to deploy the bomb.
For 1973, I think what egyptian did was defending the israelian invasion to Sinia in 1967 or they just "invaded" Israel for no reason?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 10, 2005 - 04:25 AM
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In 1967 Egypt broke international law by blocking Israeli shipping in international waters - it then moved 500,000 troops to Israel's southern boarder and told the UN to get lost -
the result was the 6 day war - during the course of this Egypt lost territory - in 73 they tried to reclaim this territory - struck on the Jewish High Holiday of Yom Kippur and succeeded at first in driving the Israelis back - the Israelis were able to regroup and counter pushing Egypt back to the 67' lines more or less.
This was followed by the land for peace deal brokered by Jimmy Carter and the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel.
The point is that if Israel was able to show restraint in the use of these weapons when Egypt was 30 miles from Tel Aviv - this is saying something - it is simply a last option for them if they feel they need it to keep Israel from being destroyed.
Matic - your going to have to do a little better then mindless personal attacks - if you want to defend the idea of Kim Jung Il aquiring nuclear weapons then please do so -
otherwise your response is just juvenile.
In fact I beg you to take up this subject with me and try to defend the idea of the biggest illegal arms trader and non-convential weapons smuggler in the world getting the most dangerous weapon in the world.
please argue me - really please - I would so love to tear you to peices ; - )
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SLOVENC
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 10, 2005 - 04:52 AM
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ROTFLMAO heheheheheh Luke this is not a personal attack, it's just funny you know, you are so agressive towards these nuclear countries, what i want to say is that they're no danger to you as long as the US won't become a threat to them! and i think your argueing kinda cute LOL really so funny! you always try to crush people that don't agree with you down! i think you should try to think from a different point of view "from more windows".
and there is a saying in slovene "pes, ki laja, ne grize"(a dog that's barking doesn't bite) this saying definetly suits you, and nort corea as well! so even if they admitred having WOMD it doesn't mean they'll attack you, just leave them in peace and they'll leave you in peace! and the same for other mentioned countries! i think you should calm down, just try to contribute that the US won't stupidly attack another country, cos i tell you if it will then there will be a massive war in the US too, i definelty belive so! it's not necessary someone will attack you but there may also be a country war as A LOT of people in the US don't agree with what their moronish president is doing! and Luke please stop panicing and putting a bad light on other countries you don't like! it is stupid that we all argue so much about this! as long as no one threats you please stop bitching these countries! and stop being so arrogant and agressive towards the TIG members that don't think the way you do!
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Ben
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 10, 2005 - 08:38 AM
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good post matic, i wanna add taht america invade N.korea to eliminate the WMD and put ina friendly government i reckon countries like china and russia will stay out of it completely and leave america to toil with the trouoble they caused. if north korea did launch on america then i doubt many countries will assist in disarming N.korea (australia for example) as they would not want to be a target.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Proliferation of WMDs
March 10, 2005 - 08:41 AM
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"they're no danger to you as long as the US won't become a threat to them!"
AHAHAHHAHAHA - very naive - North Korea is desperate for cash could easily deal these weapons to terrorist organization who hates us for either fanatical/religious reasons - or radical political or both.
Also we have enemies already - we are the world superpower - part of being king of the hill is that others would like to knock you off the top spot.
as for panic - there is none - its just realism - this idea that if we don't attack people will leave us alone is basically like a child -
Matic - by your logic if you don't lie to anyone, then no one will lie to you - if you don't steal from anyone then no one will steal from you -
why don't you just give out your bank code right now over the internet - because if your are honest, then I am sure there is nothing to worry about ; - )
I saw 9/11 with my bare eyes - I have freinds who died in the disaster - were we attacking Afghanistan when we were struck on 9/11? - were we militarily assaulting ANY middle-eastern country when those planes hit downtown New York?
No - and yet we were attacked anyway - so I guess there goes you naive ass theory.
Where North Korea is concerned - we become involved when they invaded South Korea -
funny - South Korea was just minding their own bussiness and North Korea invaded them - imagine that!
Kim Jung Il is a facist dictator whose is obbsessed with ammassing a 1 million man army and aquiring all the military capability he can - who does this remind me of????
Oh yeah - Nazi Germany - and there were morons like you who watched Germany building up this large army and they said "just leave him alone and he'll leave us alone."
England had a Prime Minister who thought like you - his name was Neville Chamberlin - his naive theory came to a rather abrupt halt when Nazi U-boats started firing torpedos at English vessles.
Perhaps you don't reolize that if the North Koreans attack Japan we HAVE to get involved - we are bound by the treaties that ended WW2.
So really your ideas are very simplistic - I am one of those Americans who oppose Bush - I voted against him and volunteered for Kerry's campeign -
But the Vast majority of Democrats oppose North Korea getting Nuclear weapons - you are acting like it is only Bush supporters who oppose North Korea -
KERRY - in the debates was critisizing Bush for not acting strongly enough to stop North Korea from getting the weapons.
obviously you don't know what you are talking about.
here we saw "his bark is worse than his bite" - And I don't bark - I bite - I say what I mean and mean what I say.
just like the US - those who think we are just barking - are bound get a rude awakening.
I have included a picture of the Korean Penninsula - the one with all the lights and electricty is our ally -
- the one with with that kinder, gentler psychotic facist dictator you seem to trust so much is the one to the North ; - )
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