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Ben
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The true war on terror!
February 2, 2005 - 07:03 AM
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I am interested in peoples opinion of this.
In the last few years I have come to notice certain things about the world, i am not sure if anyone else has noticed but i hope most of you have otherwise the world is in big trouble.
If the war on terror is about releasing masses of people from dictatorships and installing democratic political systems in coutnries around the world, or eliminting threats by bombing teh crap out of their countries and searching for WMD (weapons of mass destruction) then shouldn't the world speak up against America?
The real war on terror should start with George Bush. America are one of a handful of countries that have stockpiles of nuclear arms, and i am pretty sure america are teh only country with the capacity to produce biological and chemical weapons? and if history has taught me anything america is teh onyl country ever to actually use such devices in warfare (excluding mustard gas in WWI), so shouldnt we as people of teh world do something to eliminate this true terror from our mists?
I know that i can say i have a greater fear of George bush getting an itchy trigger finger and pointing it at Australia than Osama Bin LAden attacking my country? Am i the only one that thinks like this?
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SM
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 2, 2005 - 08:25 AM
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To play a devil's advocate, it is completely natural for a world superpower, one who currently holds the economic and military supremacy in the world, to solely attend to its own imperialistic ends. Egotism and narcissism is only part of our human nature, so undoubtedly, given the opportunity, any other entity would also do the same. Just be glad its not the Chinese or the Russians.
~S
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Brian
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 01:31 AM
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gambit1982 you're mostly right. Remember that Saddam used gas on the Kurds. I'm waiting to see which country Bush is going to "free" next. No, I'm happy Iraq is having elections, I just think the US went about the war the worst possible way. If Bush continues on and frees a country like, oh I don't know, Cuba that has been oppressed for many years by Castro or the Sudan, then I might change my tune. You don't get help from the US unless you have something the US wants badly...like oil. I guess Bush is spreading freedom like butter, but he is spreading it on a very small part of the toast.
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Lucia
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 02:30 AM
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gambit1982 - I'm scared too and worried, though not for my own country (whatever country that would even be), or for any personal concern, but for the world in general and for whatever country is next on the list to be "freed." I'm not entirely sure of why I am so scared of Bush, as opposed to the terrorists, but it might possibly have to do with the feeling I get from him - that is, that he is somehow insane with arrogance and acting from some kind of egomaniacal place in him that appeals to Americans who feel the same way about themselves as a people. Inherent in that arrogant attitude, there seems to be a kind of recklessness and a perception of an all-encompassing God-given authority to act omnipotently according to one's own whims, with full and utter disregard for all other existing parties, especially those who will suffer the most, and all of whom are weaker. That makes me feel like there is nothing they won't do to feed that place in them and that kind of insanity is frightening, especially when the whole world is at the mercy of that insanity.
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SM
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 03:39 AM
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Why? Why is he maniacal? .."Insane" ..!!
These are not words fit for a President. He surely must have some kind of normality to him to be chosen by over 55 MILLION people in his country (arguably, the most civilized, literate, and sane group in the world as well!)
I've done a lot of Bush bashing in my day as well, but I have yet to come across a compelling arguement that illustrates exactly why he is so wrong in his mandate. The US has global hegemony, why shouldn't it exploit this gem? (B/c its not 'nice'? ...come on).
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Ben
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 05:18 AM
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In actual fact there have been two reasons why America and Australia are friends;
teh first being we have some of the largest and richest sources of uranium ore in the world, which we sell mostly to america and germany. The second is we sell shitloads of coal to america - we dont use alot of coal here so we sell most of it.
But lately a new reason has developed, all of the "intellegence" america has "gathered" on the asian area (predominately indonesia, indo-china area) comes from australia. the onyl intellegence america gather is on their allies and their own people, they rely on australia, england and other european nations to gather info on other countries.
All it will take is one prime minister to stand up to america and that will be it for us - without us they lose energy sources, intellegence and a great launching pad for the bulk of asia. in our recent election one of contenders said he would stand up for our country and the bugger almost won, john howard (prime minister) only won by a bit, they called it a landslide but it wasnt much at all.
Thats why i am scared of george bush - from all the documentaries i have seen (9/11 - teh florida scandal etc.) even if only 10% of all of that stuff is actual truth i am still worried that when the time comes for us to stand without being blackmailed or threatened we will get blasted.
If america doesnt have the power then another country will step up, russia or maybe china - but i find it hard to believe any other major world power would have such a trigger happy nature for conquest, george bush only wants to put into power "friendly" governments that he will get something out of, as if he cares about the people of iraq - if he cared for them and his american soldiers he would not have gone to war in the way he did.
Let me finish by saying if Australia or England had teh fire power and money to burn like teh american military this would have been over months ago. America might be the wealthy and powerful but they are defiantely not the most
" ..civilized, literate, and sane group in the world.."
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Lucia
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 05:22 AM
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Actually, what I said was that the way Bush is also appeals to Americans who feel and think the same way that he does, which makes him normal among them.
I personally don't know all 55 million of the people who voted for Bush, but I don't think any wise person would claim them to be the most civil, literate or sane bunch of people in the world. That is an awfully bold statement, and most likely not even remotely accurate.
All of that aside, morality is not a prerequisite for any of those qualities.
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Ben
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 05:47 AM
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Bitsy,
the civiliased, literate and sane line i was quoting from Salar. i would not make a statement as bold as that.Besides, i have ahd an interesting conversation with an american before, he claiemd that we (australians) had a weird accent and should chaneg to the amercian style, i said why - his response was "250 million people are more right than 20 million people" to which i replied "by that logic, the 400 million people in India who speak english, speak it more right than the 250 million people in america"
which he did not liek at all and replied with some B grade insult about their natioanlity and my mother, and dont put it past americans to claim there are the most civil, literate and sane people of the world, that is a borad generalistion and i am sure many americans are good smart people but out of all the americans i have meet in person and talked with, i am yet to be surprised by their attitude toward themselves and the rest of the world.
in all seriousness, 55 million people voted fro george bush, which means 55 million people think like him, which means 55 million amercians believe by blowing teh shit of Iraq and afghanastan and "freeing" the people there it would make america safer? come on what civil smart sensible perosn would fall for that shit for a second? that tell sme that 55 million amercians are so easily suggestable he could easily start a war with australia or finalnd, spin some shit in the news, and 55 million americans woudl support it. that is what scares me more than anything. the fact that 55 million amercians are so biast and closed to all the facts (not their fault, generally the media and government control what they see and hear) is of teh biggest concern to me.
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SM
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 06:08 AM
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Originally posted by gambit1982
America might be the wealthy and powerful but they are defiantely not the most
" ..civilized, literate, and sane group in the world.."
If you consider a civilized nation as one that is envied and duplicated by the entire world (proof: Rapid Americanization to all corners of the world), then they certainly are civilized.
If you consider literacy as a nation who possesses a 97% literaly rate, and holds the most prestigious and well known ivy league schools in the world, they they are certainly literate.
If you consider sanity by the democratic elements present in a country, then again, they are certainly sane; as they are ruled by the many, for the many.
If you are going to refute an arguement, please provide more evidence to back up your claims. A simple "not" in front of an arguement is not a good rebuttle.
Anyway, I see exactly where you are coming from. I am only playing devil's advocate to challenge your (and in many cases my own) beleifs. We all Bush bash, but very few of us actually know why we are doing it.
Cheers,
~S
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Ben
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 06:46 AM
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to start with as i said to bitsy, i got that quote you used off you salar - in your previous message. taken things out of context - r u a journalist?
americanistion, well there are three types, 1. what has happened in iraq (bombed down to practically nothing, then rebuilt in amercian ideals)
2. what has happened here is australia (major companies sell out to american investors for the sake of more money so we get american ideals thrust upon us, which many are fighting)
3, what has happened to canada (so close to america cant help but adopt their ideals)
97% literally rate? many countries have that rate, australia is up in the 90's. who gives a shit abotu well known ivy league schools? i dont know any of them i doubt most of the world would even care! australia has many well known and internatioanlly respected universities, but buggered if any americans know them.
How many of the 250 million americans live below the poverty line?
how many of the 250 million americans have gone to those prestigous ivy league schools.
how many of the 250 million americans know what is actually and really going on in the global village?
how many of those 97% literate people could point out iraq on a map?
i could go on, no nation is perfect, and i do not pretend australia to be, we have many issues and problems, but one thing i can say is that we generally do not get lead around by the nose (you want proof - 55 million americans voted for george bush)
i was also unaware that i had to provide proof to back up my opinion!?! what is wrong with stating my preferance? you can chose to accept it or not?
i bush bash because from what i have seen and heard through radio, news, documentaries (9/11, the florida scandal) i can deduce(even if only 10% of what i have ehard and seen is true) on my accord that i am worried that a man like george bush is in charge of the worlds largest arsenal of weapons.
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SM
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 07:32 AM
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Some facts:
Population of USA: 293 million
Literacy rate in Australia: estimated 100%
University Ratings of the world: http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).pdf
It is very hard to carry on an intelligent conversation with someone who is filled with emotion, opinion, and lacks the proper facts.
You base your animosity and hostility towards an entire nation, solely based on a few movies that you have seen. If I could please make a suggestion: Read a few books by Noam Chomsky (Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance, Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky, Profit Over People: Neoliberalism & Global Order) and Parenti (The Terrorism Trap, Against Empire, etc), and you will gain an understanding of why and how such actions are being taken by the US. Most of the time, the convictions that you currently hold will not change (Because they are justified!), but at least you will gain a factual understanding of why such things occur.
Cheers,
~S
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Brian
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 08:46 AM
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Salar I see you like to read. So do I. I have read a bit of Chomsky. Good stuff. I can't help but wonder...have you ever spent any time in the US? You seem to have a really warped view of us! = ) Here's a couple books that you need to check out that will answer all the questions you post and then some:
http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm On Bush Sr.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1887128840/002-7397602-8701628 This one's on Baby Bush Jr. Actually if you scroll down on this one, you can see my review posted on October 25, 2004 by Brian Kitchens (that's me!) Enjoy. - . -
I know exactly why I Bush-Bash. It's because Bush has followed a pattern of behavior through his entire business/political career and he has done nothing to convince me that he will ever change his spots. That pattern has been to use his dad's political connections to succeed. He would be a failed Texas "wildcatter" otherwise.
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Lucia
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by gambit1982
Bitsy,
the civiliased, literate and sane line i was quoting from Salar.
Hi, I know gambit, I was quoting Salar too for that bit, but I got distracted from writing that post and by the time I finally finished it, yours was up in between Salar's and mine. Sorry.
I assumed it was universal knowledge that Americans are poorly educated and not exceedingly literate and I have never heard anyone claim the American literacy rate to be high, let alone the highest in the world. I have no idea where the idea could have come from that Americans are the most literate people in the world.
At any rate, in response to Salar
- the proportion of Americans who are "literate" enough to study at those prestigious ivy league schools is negligible, to say the least, and the fact that those schools are in the US doesn't bare the remotest reflection on the literacy of the American population at large.
- whether it is civilization that is being exported and imitated the world over is highly debatable.
- lastly, if the "many" are not sane, then neither will the democratic elements in the country be sane.
By the way, I happen to like the Australian accent a lot 
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SM
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by BrianK
Salar I see you like to read. So do I. I have read a bit of Chomsky. Good stuff. I can't help but wonder...have you ever spent any time in the US? You seem to have a really warped view of us! = ) Here's a couple books that you need to check out that will answer all the questions you post and then some:
http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm On Bush Sr.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1887128840/002-7397602-8701628 This one's on Baby Bush Jr. Actually if you scroll down on this one, you can see my review posted on October 25, 2004 by Brian Kitchens (that's me!) Enjoy. - . -
I know exactly why I Bush-Bash. It's because Bush has followed a pattern of behavior through his entire business/political career and he has done nothing to convince me that he will ever change his spots. That pattern has been to use his dad's political connections to succeed. He would be a failed Texas "wildcatter" otherwise.
Thanks for the links Brian. I will have a look through them. I certainly agree with your sentiments regarding Bush. As I mentioned before, I am playing the devils' advocate to question WHY people hold the views they do. Sometimes these views are legitimately based, other times they are the product of media and policy conditioning.
Anyhow, I would be interested in hearing why you think the views I have authored are warped regarding the US.
Cheers,
~S
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SM
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Re: The true war on terror!
February 3, 2005 - 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by BrianK
Salar I see you like to read. So do I. I have read a bit of Chomsky. Good stuff. I can't help but wonder...have you ever spent any time in the US? You seem to have a really warped view of us! = ) Here's a couple books that you need to check out that will answer all the questions you post and then some:
http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm On Bush Sr.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1887128840/002-7397602-8701628 This one's on Baby Bush Jr. Actually if you scroll down on this one, you can see my review posted on October 25, 2004 by Brian Kitchens (that's me!) Enjoy. - . -
I know exactly why I Bush-Bash. It's because Bush has followed a pattern of behavior through his entire business/political career and he has done nothing to convince me that he will ever change his spots. That pattern has been to use his dad's political connections to succeed. He would be a failed Texas "wildcatter" otherwise.
Thanks for the links Brian. I will have a look through them. I certainly agree with your sentiments regarding Bush. As I mentioned before, I am playing the devils' advocate to question WHY people hold the views they do. Sometimes these views are legitimately based, other times they are the product of media and policy conditioning.
Anyhow, I would be interested in hearing why you think the views I have authored are warped regarding the US.
Cheers,
~S
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